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Na Madrai
16-03-15, 21:03
Colts cup semi-final, played at the ground of a first class club.

Having ascertained that fully qualified medical personnel were present, I had a meeting before the match with all eleven coaches representing both teams. I informed them that I expected all coaches to remain in the technical areas whilst the match was in play - none were to enter the FOP without my permission.

A thrilling, fast, very tight match. With two minutes remaining, blue team score a try which, if converted, would give them a one point lead. As the kicker lines up his kick, an opposing coach runs on from the nearside and runs towards the goalposts in the general direction that the ball should follow until he finally disappears into the crowd behind the posts.

The kicker, clearly disturbed, who has not missed a kick all match, completely messes up.

What should I do - or perhaps what can I do?

NM

Daftmedic
16-03-15, 22:03
Time off. Retake. Runner can explain himself for coming into the playing surface without your permission to a disciplinary board.

Shelflife
17-03-15, 01:03
Id be tempted to allow a retake on the basis on an unauthorised pitch incursion.

Taff
17-03-15, 01:03
Time off. Retake.

Id be tempted to allow a retake on the basis on an unauthorised pitch incursion.
I thought we could only allow a retake for an infringement by an opposing "player" ... which doesn't include an opposing coach.

9.B.3 The opposing team

(a) All players of the opposing team must retire to their goal line and must not overstep that line until the kicker begins the approach to kick or starts to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.

... If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker may take another kick and the opposing team is not allowed to charge.

Drift
17-03-15, 02:03
Colts cup semi-final, played at the ground of a first class club.

Having ascertained that fully qualified medical personnel were present, I had a meeting before the match with all eleven coaches representing both teams. I informed them that I expected all coaches to remain in the technical areas whilst the match was in play - none were to enter the FOP without my permission.

A thrilling, fast, very tight match. With two minutes remaining, blue team score a try which, if converted, would give them a one point lead. As the kicker lines up his kick, an opposing coach runs on from the nearside and runs towards the goalposts in the general direction that the ball should follow until he finally disappears into the crowd behind the posts.

The kicker, clearly disturbed, who has not missed a kick all match, completely messes up.

What should I do - or perhaps what can I do?

NM

If you had a meeting and then didn't follow it up with a retake of the conversion and then ejecting that person from the playing enclosure then you have lost all credibility in my opinion.

I would question the need for the meeting with the 11 people before a big game, the coaches know they aren't allowed on the FOP so why do you need to have a meeting to tell them that?

Taff
17-03-15, 03:03
If you had a meeting and then didn't follow it up with a retake of the conversion and then ejecting that person from the playing enclosure then you have lost all credibility in my opinion.
Law reference? And the coach was already off the playing enclosure.


.. I would question the need for the meeting with the 11 people before a big game, the coaches know they aren't allowed on the FOP so why do you need to have a meeting to tell them that?
Just a wild guess here, but I suspect there was more to it than just that.

Drift
17-03-15, 05:03
Law reference? And the coach was already off the playing enclosure.

Not sure, something along the lines about coming on the FOP without the referee's permission.


Just a wild guess here, but I suspect there was more to it than just that.
I assume so as well, I was more questioning the need for the meeting.

menace
17-03-15, 05:03
If it was during the kicking process then I'd let him take it again. On the basis of 'equity' and 'fairness'. IMO it can be inferred that the laws only permit certain persons entering the FOP, therefore others can not. In particular 6.A.5 (f) and 6.C.2 infers it.

6.A.5 Entering or leaving the playing area
(a) Authorised medically trained persons may enter the playing area during the match to attend to injured players. They must only enter the playing area if it is safe to do so.
(b)Persons carrying water for the players may only enter the playing area during a stoppage in play for an injury to a player.
(c)A person carrying a kicking tee may enter the field of play after a team has indicated that they intend to kick at goal after that team has been awarded a penalty kick or scored a try.
(d)The referee gives permission to the players to leave the playing area.
(e)The referee gives permission to the replacements or substitutes to enter the playing area.
(f)The coaches may enter the playing area at half-time to attend to their teams.

6.C.2 Those who may enter the playing area
The match doctor and the non-playing members of the team may enter the playing area as authorised by the referee.

In regards to 6.C.2, the referee in OP AIUI did not authorise the entry!

If he was spotted prior to the kicking, I would stop the kicker. Call time off and tell him to take all the time he needs and when HE was ready to proceed then he could kick. If he botched it after being given time to settle, then I'm sorry but too bad.

Of course then a bollocking to the guilty team for it and report to the match organisers to sort out.

didds
17-03-15, 09:03
If it had been somebody with no clear club allegiance and certainly unconncted with the playters and match day entourage, what would you have done?

Forget its a coach for now. Its just a pitch incursioin but "a person".

In some people foetid worlds if with this club you make a BIG point of it being a coach then next time they have you and want to0p sue the same tactic, they'll just send another club member across.

didds

OB..
17-03-15, 13:03
If it had been somebody with no clear club allegiance and certainly unconncted with the playters and match day entourage, .....eg Erica Roe?

crossref
17-03-15, 13:03
the kicker --
- if the kicker pulls up or is clearly y put off /distracred -- then time off, take a few moments to refocus, time back-on.
- if he ignores the disturbance and continues his preparation to kick : do nothing, let him take the kick, interfering just has the danger of putting him off more (he may not have even registered it)

no re-take.

the coach --
Assuming the coach is now nowhere to be seen, I would not leave the FoP to go amongst the crowd to find him. Just play out the last two minutes, then write up a report.

If, however, the coach is now back on the sideline jeering at the kids he has distracted, then by all means send him away.

TheBFG
17-03-15, 14:03
11 coaches :wow:

our tech areas here are allowed 4 people and that includes water carriers!

Browner
17-03-15, 14:03
Colts cup semi-final, played at the ground of a first class club.

Having ascertained that fully qualified medical personnel were present, I had a meeting before the match with all eleven coaches representing both teams. I informed them that I expected all coaches to remain in the technical areas whilst the match was in play - none were to enter the FOP without my permission.

A thrilling, fast, very tight match. With two minutes remaining, blue team score a try which, if converted, would give them a one point lead. As the kicker lines up his kick, an opposing coach runs on from the nearside and runs towards the goalposts in the general direction that the ball should follow until he finally disappears into the crowd behind the posts.

The kicker, clearly disturbed, who has not missed a kick all match, completely messes up.

What should I do - or perhaps what can I do?

NM

It is possible, that this kickers technique buckled under the 'pressure of the moment' he certainly wouldn't be the first for that to happen, irrespective of external distractions, we'll never know.


If after the Coacheat had ran across the pitch the kicker is given ample time to compose himself ( yes i know that this may still add to the pressure) and rekick when he's ready ( id have told him that he may take as long as he need) then I think the referee has no option other than to proceed and report the incident post match.

It seems in these days of disingenuous ' officials' gamesmanship that we need an additional Law deterrent , so two initial thoughts ????
1) a PK at the restart ???
Or ( my preference)
2) new law : if the referee becomes aware of any person represented as an official of the opposition club who takes any action that materially interferes or distracts with the kickers preparation or the kick, then the referee may allow the kick to be taken or retaken from directly in front of the posts.** ???


** the likelyhood of a person deliberately faking for a bluff is remote.

PS... The devil in me, would ( at the time of the pitch intrusion) been equally as confused by the coach encroachment , and this confusion could easily have ended up with me walking towards the coach waving him off the field , then when I return Ive forgotten the exact location of the kick , so to err on the safe side i award it some 5-15meters further infield from my now hazy/distracted recollection of where the try was scored, as I'm always easily confused whenever I witness off field gamesmanship occurring !!!!

Pps, I have no issue with the coaches briefing, it gives a clear point from which to start. X11 amateur coach/helpers are prone to be unruly!!

didds
17-03-15, 14:03
eg Erica Roe?


works for me OB!

Tho Erica did have the decency to wait for half time :-)

didds

Browner
17-03-15, 15:03
works for me OB!

Tho Erica did have the decency to wait for half time :-)

didds
"I was trying to get through to the boys - but most of them seemed to be gazing over my shoulder," recalled Beaumont

As distractions go, those two certainly achieved that !!!

davidgh
23-03-15, 09:03
Give the retake

Interrupt the restart just as about to kick
Send captain to bring the coach
Red card him
Send to change room

SimonSmith
23-03-15, 13:03
Never. Ever. Ever. Show a card to a coach.

FlipFlop
23-03-15, 14:03
Never. Ever. Ever. Show a card to a coach.

Strongly disagree

It depends on the regualtions in force by your federation/union.

Over here we have specific regulations allowing us to red card ANYONE on the match sheet (and only people on match sheet allowed inside the rope). No red card = no sanction.

So over here, you can and should show a card to a coach if appropriate.

I would advise everyone to know what their federation/union/society expects in this regard.

Blackberry
23-03-15, 14:03
"I was trying to get through to the boys - but most of them seemed to be gazing over my shoulder," recalled Beaumont

As distractions go, those two certainly achieved that !!!



And Steve Smith said "Here Bill, there's a bloke come on with your arse on his chest."

Na Madrai
23-03-15, 19:03
Sorry for not returning to this topic earlier.

Because of the importance of this match, I decided that I would strictly enforce the rule that coaches must stay in the technical areas. This meant that there would be no instances of play being delayed whilst coaches spoke to their players whilst time was running. By speaking to all coaches before hand, all knew exactly what I required of them - if a player was injured, the physios had permission to attend without my signal but if input from a coach was required such as a substitution, I would invite them onto the pitch.

I made it very clear that I would not look kindly on coaches leaving their technical area.

Back to the OP.

The coach had disappeared into the crowd behind the posts and I could deal with him afterwards. I decided that this act of gross unsporting behaviour needed to be seen to be seriously punished by both players and spectators. Although this was the last minute of the match, my action would have to be the same as if it were the first minute and must therefore have a discouraging effect.

I therefore called both skippers to the centre spot. I informed the black skipper that his team had an extra player on the pitch whilst the match was in play. In accordance with the laws, play restarted with a PK to blue on the centre spot. They seriously thought about kicking for goal but chose to run it failing to score and hence losing the match.

Afterwards, black officials stated that the coach who had invaded the pitch must have been a spectator as no-one knew him. I put a report in but I have heard nothing back.

Now, there were two ARs appointed from the home Society and there were two advisors present, one a local and the second from another Society - oh, the pressure, the pressure!!!!

So, we were able to have a spirited though short discussion - short as I had an afternoon match.

Both ARs agreed that my actions were appropriate, one advisor stated that I had exceeded my authority and t'other stated that I was completely wrong - no team can be punished by a referee for the actions of spectators whether coaches or not.

And there is more ........

NM

didds
23-03-15, 20:03
I therefore called both skippers to the centre spot. I informed the black skipper that his team had an extra player on the pitch whilst the match was in play.

Well, there's the rub really isn't it?

There was no 16th player. There was A.N. Other that had no right to be there, but he wasn't a player. He wasn't, I suspect greatly, on the team sheet as a player for sure.

So you've made something up because you felt it wasn't right - again. You seem to have a history of this.

The laws I will agree do not cover this scenario adequately. At best society regs etc provide some reporting system, and you can stop the game until the home club get matters under control, but making up non-laws or bending the laws where they do not fit is little better IMO than what the bloke that ran across did.

As I asked above - what would you have done if it wasn't somebody known to be a coach? Just a random spectator? Maybe without identifying colours as to which side they supported? And if colours were worn, how would you know it wasn't some double bluff going on? ie red v blue, blue supporter puts reds' colours on and runs across pitch to dupe the ref into winning blue a PK?

Forget it was a coach, treat them as a random person, and apply the laws as written and meant. Everything else is NOT your problem to resolve.

And stop making stuff up.



didds

Na Madrai
23-03-15, 20:03
.......... Yesterday, I refereed black's under seventeens in a cup semi-final.

Black were completely dominant and the fifty point differential was reached shortly after half-time. White coaches decided to play on - at least for a little while.

Towards the end of the match, some players drew my attention to a black's coach who was standing near to the fifteen metre line on the opposite side of the pitch from where play was, waving his arms and screaming. I immediately stopped play and approached him. He continued shouting and waving his arms so I stopped perhaps five yards from him. He was shouting about one of his players having received a serious knock to his head.

When he had finished his tirade, which inluded much foul language, he let me know in no uncertain terms what he thought of my refereeing ability. I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening - the primary purpose of using a card in relation to a coach in my opinion.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure.

Although there had been a number of hard collisions during the match, for the first time that I can recall, no player was forced to receive treatment during the match and, apart from technical infringements, there were only two penalties during the match - white for charging recklessly into a ruck for which he was yellow carded, and black for an attempted trip.

No player appeared to be injured, both skippers stated that their team mates were fine and so we played on. After the match, I was informed that the coach was reacting to a comment from a spectator that the coach's son had been seen holding his head!

I have put a report in and received a reply that a coach from black's under fifteen team had also been dismissed yesterday - three coaches at different age group levels, from the same club, in eight days!

All three teams are through to finals!!!!

Be very interesting to see what happens next.


NM

Na Madrai
23-03-15, 20:03
Sorry, Didds, but there is a burden on every referee to try to ensure that the game is played in the right spirit - not jut now but for the future. I will not allow the game to sink to the level that soccer has done despite the best attempts of coaches to do otherwise.

This was a clear case of sportsmanship and I thought up what I thought was the correct response. Had I the time to think about it, what I would now do in the future should this occur again is abandon the match and then let the officials sort it out. At the time, I came up with what I thought to be a logical conclusion - agreed by two current referees and disagreed by two no longer active referees.

Had it been a spectator - but it was not, this person was present at the coaches prematch briefing?

NM

crossref
23-03-15, 20:03
Considering the number of unusual tales we have been told over the years, I do wonder if NM is pulling our legs... and has been for quite a while. :)

didds
24-03-15, 00:03
Sorry, Didds, but there is a burden on every referee to try to ensure that the game is played in the right spirit - not jut now but for the future. I will not allow the game to sink to the level that soccer has done despite the best attempts of coaches to do otherwise.

I don't disagree. But you seem to have a history of making laws ujp, and bending laws to fit your perceived vision of what the game "is".

The game has clearly defined procedures, discussed here ad nauseum, of dealing with extraneous persons. That is what stops rugby from degenerating in to football. Waving red cards around in a frankly totally meaningless fashion doesn't help at all. What it does do is make you look like someone who actually doesn't understand the laws properly. And that is where loss of respect for you starts. ifr you are going to make laws up to suit you and your vision of the game, why shouldn't anybody else?

Stop making stuff up. Blow the laws, use the regs and your society's procedures. It really cannot be that difficult.

didds

Na Madrai
24-03-15, 02:03
No red card was waved about in this instance!

We had a child, probably playing in the most imposing surroundings of his life, probably in front of the largest crowd of his life and probably taking the most important kick of his life and his concentration is deliberately destroyed by an adult official from the opposition camp - an adult who had been expressely warned against entering the playing enclosure. Of course, the kicker could have been an international schoolboy having a bad day and thus used to such pressure but from what I saw in general play, I doubt it.

My preceived vision of the game is based on the fact that the laws states something along the lines of rugby football should be played both to the letter and the spirit of the Laws and that coaches should respect the decisions of the referee.* This adult took a deliberate decision to try to assist his side against the spirit of rugby football and against the express instructions of the referee. You believe that it is up to the tournament's organisers to decide whether there should be a punishment but this will be long after the event and I doubt if any of the crowd would ever hear of the organiser's decision. They would go away and no doubt some of them would think this behaviour acceptable because 'we saw it at that match'.

By making my decision, wrongly or rightly, I have emphasised to all - especially the important people, the kids playing in the match - that such behaviour will not be tolerated in rugby football. It is not much, but it is an attempt to keep the mutual respect between all participants in rugby which is the guiding principle behind the Laws.

Thinking about it now, as I said, the probable correct response should have been to abandon the match and let the organisers sort it out but at the time I did what I thought best for the game of rugby football.

As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true - I sometimes think that I should get a tee shirt like that soccer player a couple of years back asking why does it always happen to me?



NM

*Sorry, I am not computer literate enough to sort out the exact wording; I am always amazed at how easily most contributors to this site are able to post direct quotations from the Laws.

crossref
24-03-15, 11:03
As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true - I sometimes think that I should get a tee shirt like that soccer player a couple of years back asking why does it always happen to me?
.

Oh well, at least no one called the police this time !

davidgh
24-03-15, 12:03
NM, I applaud you for trying to uphold the spirit and manners of the game.

I think using a Red Card in that way to indicate to the crowd and the players that the coach has been expelled is an excellent idea. Some counties have a real issue with Coach and Parental behaviour and it needs seriously overt behaviour of this sort to ensure that all present get the message - loud and clear - unacceptable.

The situation is really covered in the LOTG so I think you are right to make it up.

Restarting with a Penalty is an interesting idea, but I suspect a bridge too far. Had the Captains been warned about their coaches behaviour?

crossref
24-03-15, 12:03
NM, I applaud you for trying to uphold the spirit and manners of the game.

I think using a Red Card in that way to indicate to the crowd and the players that the coach has been expelled is an excellent idea. Some counties have a real issue with Coach and Parental behaviour and it needs seriously overt behaviour of this sort to ensure that all present get the message - loud and clear - unacceptable.

but he didn't issue a red card ! - The intruder, who may / may not have been a coach, had disappeared.


The coach had disappeared into the crowd behind the posts and I could deal with him afterwards. I decided that this act of gross unsporting behaviour needed to be seen to be seriously punished by both players and spectators. Although this was the last minute of the match, my action would have to be the same as if it were the first minute and must therefore have a discouraging effect.

I therefore called both skippers to the centre spot. I informed the black skipper that his team had an extra player on the pitch whilst the match was in play. In accordance with the laws, play restarted with a PK to blue on the centre spot.


Restarting with a Penalty is an interesting idea, but I suspect a bridge too far.

but that is the action that NM actually did.

didds
24-03-15, 13:03
but he didn't issue a red card !

err... ??

NM: "I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening"

My point is/was simply that there is nothing in the laws and regs generally that this is in anyway a meaningful action. All it does is flag you as aref that ignores/is ignorant of those laws/regs.

didds

didds
24-03-15, 13:03
>> Restarting with a Penalty is an interesting idea, but I suspect a bridge too far.
but that is the action that NM actually did.

There is no law that permits a ref to PK a team for the actions of its supporters including coaches.

Maybe there should be - but there isn't.

didds

crossref
24-03-15, 13:03
NM has described two incidents - in neither story does he tell us he issued a RC

In the first one NM tells is the intruder disappeared

The coach had disappeared into the crowd behind the posts and I could deal with him afterwards

In the second one NM tells us he decided to issue a RC, but before he could get the card out of his pocket he was assaulted, and then a second coach arrived and ushered the miscreant away.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure

didds
24-03-15, 14:03
OK - semantics. IF the coach HADN'T shoved him etc etc etc he WOULD have produced a RC. The RC WOULD have appeared. Contrary to any law or regulation available in RFU land. And most of the rest of the world. The action is in reality meaningless - it has no basis in the laws etc.

As it was he DID PK the team for its coach's action.

"There is no law that permits a ref to PK a team for the actions of its supporters including coaches."

Don't make stuff up. If I cannot be any more clearer, then "If you make stuff up, you will look a twat".



Clear now?

didds

crossref
24-03-15, 15:03
the two incidents are really very different.

1 - the first incident described was an intruder on the pitch, who may have been a coach, who disappeared.

2 - the second incident described was very severe case of referee abuse and actual assault! - with coach ordered off the playing enclosure (or would have been if not escorted off by colleagues)

For (2) you shouldn't use a card , as cards are for players - but on the other hand, I don't have a strong aversion to showing a RC if it helps to get the message across to the coach and spectators. A RC means you are ordering the player off the field. That's exactly what you are doing to the coach.

Shelflife
24-03-15, 15:03
While I agree with NM ethos, awarding a pen was just wrong in law and only opens up another can of worms. The coach was a dick and it should be reported, but thats hard to do as the rest of the coaches covered for him. Its up to the committes to come down hard on things like this.

Id have no problem with showing a red card in the second instance, sure theres no basis in law for it but it shows clearly to all at the game that such behaviour isnt tolerated and that it hasnt gone unpunished/unnoticed and that there will be consequences for the actions.

Otherwise we have a senario where the ref is abused and the coach just appears to walk away unpunished.

didds
24-03-15, 15:03
That is why you have a protocol to deal with it.

If the coach disappears iunto the public stand/outside the ntechnical area, that is as obvious. better still have the conversation loudly near a touchline.



Do you RC a bunch of chavs wandering across the pitch ? (I've seen it happen).

didds

Browner
24-03-15, 16:03
he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back .

At this point I abandon the fixture. This clubs Officers, the CB and the CB Disciplinary committee and my Referee Society can then discuss whether or not referees will be provided to this club UNTIL they have demonstrated an active deterrent programme for ensuring referee respect/ protection from assault.

This club will remain on my 'volunteer' banned list, until I am satisfied with the way it is handled.

Failure to stand tough on this subject is the Thin End of the Wedge that concludes with serious referee assault.

FlipFlop
24-03-15, 16:03
Contrary to any law or regulation available in RFU land. And most of the rest of the world.

Be careful with statements like that. You are making it up! Just because RFULand does it one way, doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Most of Europe have regulations that allow Red Carding anyone on the match sheet. I assume due to the presence of "soccer" mentality in many people. (note most of Europe have licences for players, coaches, officials - and all inside the rope must be on the sheet)

Side note: The laws do not require a red card to send anyone off, and using it (or not) should not influence anything afterwards, provided the correct forms are filled in.

Browner
24-03-15, 17:03
Towards the end of the match, some players drew my attention to a black's coach who was standing near to the fifteen metre line on the opposite side of the pitch from where play was, waving his arms and screaming. I immediately stopped play and approached him. He continued shouting and waving his arms so I stopped perhaps five yards from him. He was shouting about one of his players having received a serious knock to his head.

When he had finished his tirade, which inluded much foul language, he let me know in no uncertain terms what he thought of my refereeing ability. I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening - the primary purpose of using a card in relation to a coach in my opinion.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure.


NM,

Having replied already, i now turned my thoughts to how to prevent ......

what happened to the 5yd gap betwxt you. Whilst i agree you shoudnt have to experience abuse i also suspect that you didnt do enoughor seek to 'preserve your space'

It might have been helpful if you'd turned to walk away from this tirade abusing coach and issued your 'public reprimanding' card from the safety of say 10m away , then keep him in your peripheral view but keep walking to put more distance between you. You will have achieved your desired result without being within pushing distance.

Any coach who then chases after you is publicly highlighted to all watchers ........ I doubt even he would've.

Just a thought.

matty1194
24-03-15, 19:03
As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true - I sometimes think that I should get a tee shirt like that soccer player a couple of years back asking why does it always happen to me?

(MY BOLD AND UNDERLINE)

Because you make things up and things escalate!

Stop trying to adjust everyone/situation to your way of thinking and apply the Laws and regulations set out by your Society and RFU and then you shouldnt have all of these problems.

:shrug:

crossref
24-03-15, 19:03
As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true

Ok, come on NM -- the one where you lost your voice, so indicated Crouch Bind Set with little blows on your whistle, and afterwards someone on the sidelines reported you to the Society ... that one wasn't true was it? :)

Dixie
25-03-15, 00:03
?
Do you RC a bunch of chavs wandering across the pitch ? (I've seen it happen). Do you have Chavs in Wiltshire? I suppose you must play Trowbridge from time to time ... ?

Na Madrai
30-03-15, 20:03
Crossref, someone on this site actually found a report about this incident and posted it here! I think that they found it on the Rugby Welsh RC web site. It was reported to the Society by a player who was also employed by the RU who beleived that I should have abandoned the match on H&S grounds.

Going back to my origional posts, I apologise as I should really, perhaps, have started a seperate thread.

The first instance was a coach entering the FOP to deliberately put pressure on a child taking the last kick of a match which, if successful, would put his team into a cup final. I restarted the match with a penalty. I firmly believe that referees have a responsibility to the game as a whole. My actions showed to players and spectators that such behaviour is unacceptable. I understand that coaches are interested pretty much in simply winning the match/league/cup and that their position/job/mortgage may depend on same and therefore might agree with this sportsmanship - but in a childrens' match such behaviour must be punished in such a way that everyone is immediately aware that such behaviour will not be condoned in the game as a whole - just as the use of a blood pellet will not be tolerated. I could not show a RC - see below. With hindsight, I believe that the correct stance should have been to abandon the match - hindsight is such a wonderful thing! What was very interesting is that two active referees agreed with my decision but two retired referees did not!

The second instance was a youth team coach entering the FOP and both verbally and physically abusing me because he had been informed that a player may have suffered a head injury. I attempted to show a RC but was physically prevented from so doing. The showing of a RC to a player is no more informative to the player than words, the result is the same. The showing of a RC to a player, coach, spectator or a player kicking an opponent is simply to visualise to all present a very clear signal that such behaviour is unacceptable and what the immediate punishment is for that action. It may not always be in the LOTG but it is effective, immediate and unquestionable to spectators and players.

I will be raising the first instance at Wednesday's AGM so will give a brief summary of views shortly.


NM

Browner
30-03-15, 21:03
. three coaches at different age group levels, from the same club, in eight days!

All three teams are through to finals!!!!

Be very interesting to see what happens next.
NM

Anything less than the Disc Committee sending a very clear message to this club, would be weak discipline management IMO. Let's hope they get the message across 'firmly'

didds
31-03-15, 01:03
? Do you have Chavs in Wiltshire? I suppose you must play Trowbridge from time to time ... ?

I have mates that play for Trowvegas so I can't comment :-)

didds

didds
31-03-15, 01:03
The first instance was a coach entering the FOP to deliberately put pressure on a child taking the last kick of a match which, if successful, would put his team into a cup final. ...

.... I understand that coaches are interested pretty much in simply winning the match/league/cup and that their position/job/mortgage may depend on same

at a community club youth game? job? mortgage? Which club youth sides pay a coach's salary that would normally be large enough to support a mortgage? can you let me know cos I want to apply for that job!!!





I believe that the correct stance should have been to abandon the match

which potentially provides a "tactical option" in some circumstances.



The second instance was a youth team coach entering the FOP and both verbally and physically abusing me because he had been informed that a player may have suffered a head injury. I attempted to show a RC .... It may not always be in the LOTG


I do wonder why it isn't in the LoTG.. ?? Along with red cards for chavs, dog walkers and the tea lady who comes on the pitch and insists that everybody comes and eats NOW. (I've played in a cricket match when this happened!)



didds

crossref
31-03-15, 08:03
NM, so in the first incident are they children, or are they Colts. In the OP you said Colts.

crossref
31-03-15, 12:03
.......

Dixie
31-03-15, 15:03
....... +1 :clap:

davidgh
01-04-15, 08:04
NM, so in the first incident are they children, or are they Colts. In the OP you said Colts.

In many counties Colts are children?

didds
01-04-15, 11:04
In many counties Colts are children?


Yup.

Here in D&W "colts" is U17 and U18. Though U18 could have players in it that in any season have attained their 18th birthday of course.

didds

OB..
01-04-15, 13:04
If somebody refers to "children" playing rugby, I automatically assume they mean mini rugby, not junior.

davidgh
02-04-15, 08:04
Well ob you are wrong!

We call all kids rugby 'junior' split into youth and minis.

But under 18 years old is a child, whether a Colt or not.
There points of legal confusion at 14yo and 16yo but adults from a safeguarding perspective have attained 18 th birthday.

crossref
02-04-15, 11:04
Colts is not a defined term, where I am Colts means u18. In other places perhaps it's different and refers to younger players....

Although an u18 rugby team in March will contain some 17 year old, I never hear anyone refer to them a children. Certainly when you look at an u18 team in person, 'chilfren' is not the term that comes to mind!

didds
02-04-15, 12:04
If somebody refers to "children" playing rugby, I automatically assume they mean mini rugby, not junior.

me too...

children = up to U12.
youth = U13-U16
Colts = U17 and above.

whilst maintaining an understanding that those below the age of 18 are "children" in the eyes of the law and for protection etc purposes.

clearly others mileage may vary

didds

OB..
02-04-15, 16:04
If somebody refers to "children" playing rugby, I automatically assume they mean mini rugby, not junior.


We call all kids rugby 'junior' split into youth and minis.
Yes, I stand corrected. Junior was the former term but we in Gloucestershire do not use it formally any longer because it causes confusion (to me!). We have a Mini & Youth section. The RFU Regulations refer simply to Age Grade Rugby.

davidgh
03-04-15, 10:04
The children until 18 thing is simply worth remembering. There are a lot of legal issues that apply to a 17 yo and an 8 yo, as a ref, coach, first aider etc.

I was not suggesting saying 'now now children' to the brutes in the colts!

Pinky
03-04-15, 14:04
In Scotland one becomes an adult at 16. There remain some things that you canot do at that age such as drive, vote in a UK election, or buy drink in a pub or off-licence, and there are some protections especially around contracts. Not that that changes rugby rules much!

Novice-Ref
13-04-15, 00:04
Has anyone seen coaches coming onto the pitch saying they are "the water carrier". What action do you take?

chbg
13-04-15, 01:04
At lower levels he probably is the only one! Nothing to get heated about - at international level the kicking coach brings on the tee as a declared water boy. Wouldn't want them coming on without the water bottles though.

Browner
29-04-15, 17:04
.......... Yesterday, I refereed black's under seventeens in a cup semi-final.

Black were completely dominant and the fifty point differential was reached shortly after half-time. White coaches decided to play on - at least for a little while.

Towards the end of the match, some players drew my attention to a black's coach who was standing near to the fifteen metre line on the opposite side of the pitch from where play was, waving his arms and screaming. I immediately stopped play and approached him. He continued shouting and waving his arms so I stopped perhaps five yards from him. He was shouting about one of his players having received a serious knock to his head.

When he had finished his tirade, which inluded much foul language, he let me know in no uncertain terms what he thought of my refereeing ability. I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening - the primary purpose of using a card in relation to a coach in my opinion.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure.

Although there had been a number of hard collisions during the match, for the first time that I can recall, no player was forced to receive treatment during the match and, apart from technical infringements, there were only two penalties during the match - white for charging recklessly into a ruck for which he was yellow carded, and black for an attempted trip.

No player appeared to be injured, both skippers stated that their team mates were fine and so we played on. After the match, I was informed that the coach was reacting to a comment from a spectator that the coach's son had been seen holding his head!

I have put a report in and received a reply that a coach from black's under fifteen team had also been dismissed yesterday - three coaches at different age group levels, from the same club, in eight days!

All three teams are through to finals!!!!

Be very interesting to see what happens next.


NM
Update???
what did happen next NM?
How did the CB sanction the coach (club) who assaulted you?

anthony15
30-04-15, 10:04
Leinster rugby have a rule that if the coach comes on to your pitch without your permission you allow the retake immediately and tell the coach to leave, I had a similar incident.
game was recorded by the team complaining was called up to a disciplinary committee.
the committee found that I had been correct in what I had done due to the coach stopping the recording before incurring on to my pitch, I was being assessed and recorded so evidence was there.
he was given a three week ban.
to penalise is correct.
:ireland::ireland:

crossref
30-04-15, 10:04
Leinster rugby have a rule that if the coach comes on to your pitch without your permission you allow the retake immediately and tell the coach to leave, I had a similar incident.
game was recorded by the team complaining was called up to a disciplinary committee.
the committee found that I had been correct in what I had done due to the coach stopping the recording before incurring on to my pitch, I was being assessed and recorded so evidence was there.
he was given a three week ban.
to penalise is correct.
:ireland::ireland:

in NM's original incident (post #1) it was complicated because it was not at all clear that the person on the pitch was a coach, he disappeared from the scene and was not seen again - he may have been simply a spectator. Indeed the team involved said he was a spectator

NM --
Afterwards, black officials stated that the coach who had invaded the pitch must have been a spectator as no-one knew him. I put a report in but I have heard nothing back.

It its a spectator, I'd go back to
- if the kicker is discomfitted and stops his preparation, or complains - then stop watch, give him time to settle. time back on, kick
- if he goes ahead and takes the kick - then kick stands.

didds
30-04-15, 11:04
Leinster rugby have a rule ....


...to penalise is correct.



:ireland::ireland:

Its thus correct to penalise - in Leinster.

didds