PDA

View Full Version : One hooker says to another, "May I see the ball please?"



Donk93953
23-03-15, 18:03
Yes, its a trick play.
Taking advantage of the lack of knowledge of the laws by the other hooker.

It's a lineout.

1) Before the lineup forms
2) Ball is in possession and at the mark of team Blue throwing in ball
3) White hooker asks, Blue hooker to see the ball.
4) Blue hands the ball to White
5) White takes off up the field

Is it legal for White to do this?
Our last game the ref called a technical foul on White.

Yes, I know the law says it must be thrown five, but what about advantage?

If Blue throws ball into lineout and it doesn't travel five and White catches it...don't you play on under the advantage rule?
If Blue throws ball into lineout and it goes directly to White...don't you play advantage?
If Blue kicks the ball at a restart after a try, and it doesn't travel ten, White can play the ball under the advantage rule.

Educate me....

Donk93953

crossref
23-03-15, 18:03
:smile: is it your idea, Donk?

Surely no ref would ever allow it?

For me : no throw has taken place - the ball has not been brought back into play, peep come back here and let's have a line out.
White hooker? Nice try ... but no cigar.

If the ref has no sense of humour he could YC white for deliberately handling the ball to prevent a quick throw.

Another optin is FK white for blocking a QTI
At a quick throw-in, a player must not prevent the ball being thrown in 5 metres.
Sanction: Free Kick on 15-metre line

Donk93953
23-03-15, 18:03
But the ball has been brought into play.

It has entered the pitch from the hands of Blue thrower in-touch, into the hands of White receiver who is standing in the field of play.

OB..
23-03-15, 18:03
19.10 (h) Blocking the throw-in. A lineout player must not stand less than 5 metres from the touchline. A lineout player must not prevent the ball being thrown in 5 metres.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Donk93953
23-03-15, 18:03
you seem to have forgotten the White hooker...2 X 2

crossref
23-03-15, 18:03
Donk - how many times have you tried it, and has any referee let you get away with it?

In my mind the decision the ref has to make whether you never really expected to get away with it at all --- and this is no more than an elaborate way to prevent a Quick Throw In ? If so it's cynical and a FK or PK or even a YC depending on the circs.

Or is is just a Baldrick-like cunning plan? In which case smile and we'll have a line out and white captain? let's just play rugby.

Donk93953
23-03-15, 18:03
"Donk - how many times have you tried it, and has any referee let you get away with it?"

Used it for years. Penalized once.
It was taught to me while I attended and played at St John's at Cambridge.
Its not a method of stopping a quick throw.
Its a method of getting the ball by taking advantage of the other player's ignorance of the laws.
That is something that happens daily in rugby.

didds
23-03-15, 19:03
except of course it isn't about ignorance of the laws.

Its taking the piss.

I'm amazed you ever survived the next three rucks you were caught in.

didds

Na Madrai
23-03-15, 19:03
Ahh, Didds, those were the (bad old ) days .........

NM

Andrew1974
23-03-15, 20:03
I'm amazed you ever survived the next three rucks you were caught in.



I would have thought it would only take one!!!

Pegleg
23-03-15, 22:03
This is nonsense. Take the throw again and stop messing about.


Ball has not travelled 5.
Defending hooker is not 2x2.
It's plain daft.
Any ref who allows it would get a talking to from his Assessor.

chbg
23-03-15, 23:03
If Blue throws ball into lineout and it doesn't travel five and White catches it...don't you play on under the advantage rule?
Educate me....


No. White prevented it going 5m and so is penalisable. If White e.g. knocked on in that situation (less than 5m from Touch) I would play a possible Advantage to Blue.

The lack of knowledge of the Laws is on the other foot!

Dickie E
23-03-15, 23:03
You know that feeling where you're itching to join in a discussion but ... just can't be arsed?

didds
24-03-15, 00:03
.. and you're late already Dickie ;-)

didds

The Fat
24-03-15, 06:03
I would love to hear the response would be from some of the hookers in my local competition if the rival hooker asked them to show him the ball��
Poor work from any referee who has let the Op get away with the ploy and demonstrates a basic lack of law knowledge

crossref
24-03-15, 12:03
this thread did make me think of an alternative scenario -

ball in touch, red 15 retrieves it and is standing on touchline looking for possible quick throw in....
.. no line out is formed and the QTI is on..
.. but red 15 decides against it, and drops the ball at his feet (as they do) and the ball lands in the field of play, and bounces 1m infield
.. quick thinking blue player nips in and picks up the ball and hares off.

Anyone tempted to consider that that would constitute a quick throw in, which didn't go 5m, but play advantage to blue?

FlipFlop
24-03-15, 13:03
Had a situation the other week, PK to white. Blue are back 10m.

White player (possibly going to kick for corner, possibly to decide to kick for posts) walks up to the mark dribbling the ball soccer style. I saw a Blue player start to encroach, and look at me. I called play on. He had clearly kicked the ball through the mark (but he didn't realise what he was doing).

Luckily for white kicker, his team mate was more switched on, and got the ball before Blue defenders did.

There was not a single complaint from either side. The kicker carried the ball in his hands at all later PKs.....

crossref
24-03-15, 14:03
Had a situation the other week, PK to white. Blue are back 10m.

White player (possibly going to kick for corner, possibly to decide to kick for posts) walks up to the mark dribbling the ball soccer style. I saw a Blue player start to encroach, and look at me. I called play on. He had clearly kicked the ball through the mark (but he didn't realise what he was doing).

Luckily for white kicker, his team mate was more switched on, and got the ball before Blue defenders did.

There was not a single complaint from either side. The kicker carried the ball in his hands at all later PKs.....

I agree with your actions here - this could easily be done as ploy.....

didds
24-03-15, 14:03
Anyone tempted to consider that that would constitute a quick throw in, which didn't go 5m, but play advantage to blue?

I bloody hope not!

didds

Dickie E
24-03-15, 22:03
Had a situation the other week, PK to white. Blue are back 10m.

White player (possibly going to kick for corner, possibly to decide to kick for posts) walks up to the mark dribbling the ball soccer style. I saw a Blue player start to encroach, and look at me. I called play on. He had clearly kicked the ball through the mark (but he didn't realise what he was doing).

Luckily for white kicker, his team mate was more switched on, and got the ball before Blue defenders did.

There was not a single complaint from either side. The kicker carried the ball in his hands at all later PKs.....

What would you have done if the dribbling was 5 metres directly behind the mark? Call play on? If not, why not?

JJ10
24-03-15, 22:03
There was not a single complaint from either side. The kicker carried the ball in his hands at all later PKs.....

Cannot believe there was no complaint. He won't have even been thinking about it. I'm just not sure this feels right at any level other than elite, where they should be much more switched on. I would have warned white to remember what he was doing, no second chances, he's fair game next time. Even at elite I can see that warning being given. You would easily be able to tell if it was a ploy! We are there to facilitate a fair game and have empathy for the players, not referee to every single exact technicality of the law book! This is the same for the QT ball drop, and the "can I see the ball". Come back, do it properly. :clap:

crossref
24-03-15, 23:03
Cannot believe there was no complaint. ... You would easily be able to tell if it was a ploy!

the implication here being that if you realised it was a ploy you'd keep quiet and play on ?

so if they try this as a ploy they have to do it sufficiently casually to fool the oppo, but sufficiently obviously that the ref knows it's a ploy? That's quite a fine balance to strike!

Browner
25-03-15, 00:03
What would you have done if the dribbling was 5 metres directly behind the mark? Call play on? If not, why not?
FWIW I wouldnt call play on, as there is no kidology/gain in doing this 5m behind the mark, is there??? It sounds like 'unaware foot control' rather than 'sneakyism play'

FlipFlop
25-03-15, 11:03
My thought process is simple - there had been no indication to kick for posts, or other. The ball is live once kicked. It was not out of the question in the match for the White team to tap and go. Blue were primed to fly up if they did. Blue had clearly seen the ball being kicked. The player was clearly kicking the ball forward, not controlling it, or similar.

All players (kicker included) did not complain. And the later acts of the kicker, shows he realised it was his mistake. (and over here they are always complaining - so it shows they didn't consider this an error from me)

The difference to the line out above, there is no ploy of the opposition. It is solely down to the act of the team with the ball. In fact the kicking team is posing unnecessary questions to the defence - was it tapped, was it not, can we go etc. When the reality is simple - was the ball kicked? Yes - than the PK has been taken. And if a team is not smart enough to realise that kicking the ball, means they have taken the PK, then they need to learn fast.

I am there to facilitate a game. A Penalty kick was given. The ball was kicked (Behind the mark etc, a noticeable distance). This way it is easy to be consistent. And what happens if next time he dribbles it to the mark, and then taps and goes?

I am happy with the decision (as were the players) - and would call it again. In the same way, that when a kicker come up to kick
and is dropping the ball and chipping it back to themselves, I consider that to be taking the kick.

(The playing keep up is another story from a different match - #10 walks up to the mark playing keep up, get flattened by the defence. He did complain, until I asked what he was doing when he was flattened, and the lightbulb went off in his head - he's not done that since. His coach called him all sorts of things, and agreed with me)

OB..
25-03-15, 14:03
Many years ago a colleague was refereeing a local cup match when Red kicked the ball dead. He signalled a drop out. The Blue full back picked up the ball and unthinkingly drop-kicked it to his fly half for the restart. An alert Red player intercepted the kick and scored a try while the Blues looked on, puzzled. The try was allowed.

On the other hand it is common for a winger to pick up the ball in touch and throw it to his hooker for the lineout. What if the hooker was still on the pitch? Nobody tries to claim the throw in has been illegally taken. Would it make a difference if a QTI was still a possibility?

thepercy
25-03-15, 19:03
Women's college 7s tourney on the weekend, I had red kicking off, ball bounces in, and then rolls into touch. Gold player grabs ballad throws it to a teammate. In my mind this was a QTI, ball went the 5m but (just) forward, not flat or backwards, peep. I gave a FK to red, I have since learned, it should have been a scrum to red for an incorrect throw at QTI. Come to find out that gold thought she was getting a FK at halfway, not realizing it had landed in, or not knowing the law, and was not attempting a QTI. But, it sure looked like a QTI to me just slightly forward.

crossref
25-03-15, 23:03
Women's college 7s tourney on the weekend, I had red kicking off, ball bounces in, and then rolls into touch. Gold player grabs ballad throws it to a teammate. In my mind this was a QTI, ball went the 5m but (just) forward, not flat or backwards, peep. I gave a FK to red, I have since learned, it should have been a scrum to red for an incorrect throw at QTI. Come to find out that gold thought she was getting a FK at halfway, not realizing it had landed in, or not knowing the law, and was not attempting a QTI. But, it sure looked like a QTI to me just slightly forward.
he he! who bought the jug in the clubhouse afterwards?

Dickie E
26-03-15, 00:03
Many years ago a colleague was refereeing a local cup match when Red kicked the ball dead. He signalled a drop out. The Blue full back picked up the ball and unthinkingly drop-kicked it to his fly half for the restart. An alert Red player intercepted the kick and scored a try while the Blues looked on, puzzled. The try was allowed.



You've offered this anecdote before. Are you suggesting the referee made a correct or incorrect decision?

OB..
26-03-15, 12:03
You've offered this anecdote before. Are you suggesting the referee made a correct or incorrect decision?I leave the reader to draw his own conclusions.

Technically the drop out was validly taken by the full back.

However I added the lineout example to show that we do not always take that approach.

ChrisR
26-03-15, 12:03
Women's college 7s tourney on the weekend, I had red kicking off, ball bounces in, and then rolls into touch. Gold player grabs ballad throws it to a teammate. In my mind this was a QTI, ball went the 5m but (just) forward, not flat or backwards, peep. I gave a FK to red, I have since learned, it should have been a scrum to red for an incorrect throw at QTI. Come to find out that gold thought she was getting a FK at halfway, not realizing it had landed in, or not knowing the law, and was not attempting a QTI. But, it sure looked like a QTI to me just slightly forward.

"Accepting the kick" is still an option on a kick-off that goes directly to touch, even in 7s. Therefore a QTI is a possibility.

Since we are discussing 'trick plays' (which I deplore) then a receiver, catching the ball in touch could legitimately throw the ball into the SH and as all trot toward midfield suddenly takes off with his team in support.

Seems to me that's fair if the referee doesn't offer choice.

crossref
26-03-15, 12:03
Women's college 7s tourney on the weekend, I had red kicking off, ball bounces in, and then rolls into touch. Gold player grabs ballad throws it to a teammate. In my mind this was a QTI, ball went the 5m but (just) forward, not flat or backwards, peep. I gave a FK to red, I have since learned, it should have been a scrum to red for an incorrect throw at QTI. Come to find out that gold thought she was getting a FK at halfway, not realizing it had landed in, or not knowing the law, and was not attempting a QTI. But, it sure looked like a QTI to me just slightly forward.

someone accidentally peforming a valid QTI is an interesting scenario --
It might happen if the player
- did not realise it was his team's throw, and he helpfully chucks to the ball to the approaching oppo hooker
- did not realise the QTI was on, or had forgotten all bout the possiibiy of a QTI and helpfully throws it to is own hooker
- Law confusion - he thinks the ref is goung to award a scrum (perhaps it was knocked forward into touch, or as above at restart)

- does a perfectly executed, but unintentional QTI restart the game?
- does it make any difference if the receiver of the throw realises what has happened and hares off, or doesn't realise and also believes the ball to be dead.

ChrisR
26-03-15, 12:03
Whoa! Sorreeee!

Thought I'd check and I find 13.8 Amendment has FK at midfield for directly into touch.

Doh!

didds
26-03-15, 13:03
well, there is always the chance that the thrower of the accidental QTI understands all the laws surrounding them, but doens;t consider his helpful toss to actually be one.

but CR's questions remain the same

didds

thepercy
26-03-15, 16:03
he he! who bought the jug in the clubhouse afterwards?

Things are quite different here in the 'States, No clubhouses, No alcohol allowed on campus

crossref
26-03-15, 22:03
he he! who bought the jug in the clubhouse afterwards?

Things are quite different here in the 'States, No clubhouses, No alcohol allowed on campus

Ah yes, the land of the free...

Dickie E
26-03-15, 22:03
- does a perfectly executed, but unintentional QTI restart the game?


Not on my field, it doesn't. No intent = no restart.

Taff
16-04-15, 23:04
... Or is is just a Baldrick-like cunning plan? In which case smile and we'll have a line out and white captain? let's just play rugby.
For what it's worth, I agree.