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View Full Version : U19 : Accidental offside - what constitutes an advantage?



L'irlandais
03-04-15, 16:04
24 seconds into this FFR highlights clip (http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34283.php#.VR6h3std7cs) :france: Blue14 runs into Blue13.

It's clearly 11.6 Accidental offside (http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?law=11.6)
What's not so clear to me is why is it "play on"?

Now I'm happy to be told the referee is only interested in the clear and obvious, but for me Blue 13 offside position clearly prevents Green 4 from contesting the ball when Green 12 puts in the tackle. Blue come away with the ball, gain 10 yards and a penalty at the next breakdown... Isn't that gaining advantage from this accidental offside, or not?

My question, should this not have been a scrum to Green :ireland:?
11.6 Accidental offside :
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.12

Browner
03-04-15, 18:04
24 seconds into this FFR highlights clip (http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34283.php#.VR6h3std7cs) :france: Blue14 runs into Blue13.

It's clearly 11.6 Accidental offside (http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?law=11.6)
What's not so clear to me is why is it "play on"?

Now I'm happy to be told the referee is only interested in the clear and obvious, but for me Blue 13 offside position clearly prevents Green 4 from contesting the ball when Green 12 puts in the tackle. Blue come away with the ball, gain 10 yards and a penalty at the next breakdown... Isn't that gaining advantage from this accidental offside, or not?

My question, should this not have been a scrum to Green :ireland:?


I froze the clip at c.22s , there it shows that G13 made his tackle and G4 Assists the BC to ground , (seemingly not materially obstructed by B13 who is now on the far side of the BC from G4)

G4s inability to succeed as a TA was because he correctly repositioned his feet to avoid a ' side entry TA- PK' and in doing this was threatened by the next blue supporting player so G4 conceded the possession rather than ruck to contest it.

Smart refereeing for me, especially at match speed.

Pinky
04-04-15, 11:04
Referee seems to shout something like "own man", might be "play on", however for me it is a minimum of a scrum and possibly a PK for obstructing. The blue 14 cuts back inside an runs across behind his players, indeed so close to them that he hits Blue 13. This is pretty much obstruction by B13 for me.

Pegleg
04-04-15, 15:04
If anything he tackles his own man.

Dixie
05-04-15, 20:04
I think Browner has it. Accidental offside is only to be awarded if an opposition player is materially impeded.

When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

Green 13 was in a position to make his tackle before the contact between the Blue players, and at the moment of contact there is no-one behind the offside Blue 13. Green 4 is the wrong side of the ball at that point, and the ball carrier is between him and Blue 13. G13's tackle was completed, and the contact with the offside player impeded no-one - and if anything assisted Green 4 in becoming Tackle Assist. If you freeze it at 23 seconds, we see the Blue 13 dumped on his arse underneath and slightly to the left of the BC. The tackler is not yet on the deck, the BC remains on his feet and the tackle assist is on his feet on the BC's right - with the BC between the TA and Blue 13. Move it on to 24" and the positions remain the same, except everyone but the TA is off their feet. G13 and the BC are lying on top of the Blue 13. The TA, who has almost got into a position to jackal legally, is wholly unimpeded at this point, just as the tackle is made. Move it on a bit. We see the TA behind the BC's head; tackler around BC's knees; Blue 13 is starting to sit up at around BC's waist area - a good 0.5m away from TA, and the other side of the ball from TA. However, G4 never looks to jackal - he's adopting a wide stance to form the ruck. G12 as the tackler is the only person with a chance of jackalling, and even at 0.5" intervals I see no real effort to do so.

Blue were if anything disadvantaged, and so play continued.

L'irlandais
06-04-15, 15:04
Thanks for your replies.

The problem I still have with it is this ; at match speed the referee couldn't possibly take all that in. He plays on after an accidental offside... Without ever possibly having weighted all the pros and cons of it...

Even after numerous rewinds we are not all agreed on the decision.

It was clearly an accidental offside. It was not obvious if Blue gained an advantage or not. But they do come away with the ball despite having committed an offence. Surely that there's an advantage?

More an more often we are seeing match referees ignoring certain laws & enforcing those they deem easier to enforce.

Pegleg
06-04-15, 15:04
The ref sees it and has to go on "Clear and Obvious". It was neither; so play on. Nothing to do with your assertion: "More an more often we are seeing match referees ignoring certain laws & enforcing those they deem easier to enforce."

Browner
06-04-15, 17:04
Thanks for your replies.

The problem I still have with it is this ; at match speed the referee couldn't possibly take all that in. He plays on after an accidental offside... Without ever possibly having weighted all the pros and cons of it...

Even after numerous rewinds we are not all agreed on the decision.

It was clearly an accidental offside agreed. It was not obvious if Blue gained an advantage or not it didn't impede G4, to prevent him Lawfully Jackalling for the ball, he chose not to But they do come away with the ball despite having committed a offence. Surely that there's an advantage? imo the offence was immaterial.

More an more often we are seeing match referees ignoring certain laws & enforcing those they deem easier to enforce.

"Immaterial" was my first thought when I saw it, ( as i suspect it was the referees) I then looked at slow mo several times to forensically examine a reason to override my first thought, I couldn't find one.

So I'm sticking with 'good decision referee' , but I do admit to having no interest in who won this encounter which is likely different to most spectators at the ground. :smile:

Pegleg
07-04-15, 08:04
Spot on Browner.