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View Full Version : [Mini/Midi] Let's ban an 11 year old for life



damo
15-06-15, 08:06
My facebook feed is full of people saying that we need to get tough and ban this 11 year old from rugby for life. I don't know what is worse; that an 11 year old would hit a referee, or those that are saying he should be banned from rugby for life.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/69380191/11-year-old-facing-life-ban-from-rugby-after-allegedly-attacking-referee

Actually I do know, it is the adults talking about punishing a person for life for something they did as an 11 year old. What is the world coming to?

Daftmedic
15-06-15, 10:06
Sounds like there is a huge problem. I think they need to look at the home for reasons that's happened.
I can evidence adelesant behavioural actions till the cows come home.

Dickie E
15-06-15, 10:06
Life ban commuted to 12 months after good behaviour.

Everyone happy?

Ian_Cook
15-06-15, 11:06
My facebook feed is full of people saying that we need to get tough and ban this 11 year old from rugby for life. I don't know what is worse; that an 11 year old would hit a referee, or those that are saying he should be banned from rugby for life.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/69380191/11-year-old-facing-life-ban-from-rugby-after-allegedly-attacking-referee

Actually I do know, it is the adults talking about punishing a person for life for something they did as an 11 year old. What is the world coming to?

When a 12 year old and a 13 year old are charged with aggravated robbery and murder, it makes an 11 year old hitting a referee pale into insignificance somewhat!!

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/305469/boy-charged-murder-after-auckland-dairy-stabbing

Lee Lifeson-Peart
15-06-15, 11:06
What a cheery thread this is turning into. :(

Taff
15-06-15, 13:06
I wonder whether the kid has .... "issues".

I know one kid who used to play in an Youth side, who had behavioural problems (never hit a Ref though) and although everyone says he was Ok, I am convinced there is something wrong there.

Browner
15-06-15, 20:06
I wonder whether the kid Youth rugby in South Auckland has .... "issues".


Taff,
FTFY.

Its presumed the refs emanating out of SA are also a toughened bunch ???

Ian_Cook
15-06-15, 20:06
South Auckland itself has issues as a region. I don't think you can fairly single out their youth rugby programme for special attention.

menace
16-06-15, 07:06
Mental note...do not accept a referee exchange to South Auckland.

Dickie E
16-06-15, 10:06
Mental note...do not accept a referee exchange to South Auckland.

mate, that'd be a doddle after reffing in ACT :)

4eyesbetter
16-06-15, 11:06
In most of mainland Europe their age of criminal responsibility is set at at least 12, if not 14 or higher, and they often think that the Anglo-Saxon world is being ridiculous and barbaric by setting it lower. Food for thought.

crossref
16-06-15, 11:06
In most of mainland Europe their age of criminal responsibility is set at at least 12, if not 14 or higher, and they often think that the Anglo-Saxon world is being ridiculous and barbaric by setting it lower. Food for thought.

A blanket cut off doesn't really make sense : there are crimes that 12 year olds certainly understand perfectly well. There are other crimes that they wouldn't. In practice I think every country allows leeway in what actions are actually prosecuted, and what penalties are actually applied.

An 11 year old - of any nationality, anglo-saxon or not - would certainly understand that he shouldn't assault a referee. He may not completely understand exactly how serious an offence it is.

4eyesbetter
16-06-15, 12:06
A blanket cut off doesn't really make sense : there are crimes that 12 year olds certainly understand perfectly well. There are other crimes that they wouldn't. In practice I think every country allows leeway in what actions are actually prosecuted, and what penalties are actually applied.


Not when the age of criminal responsibility is involved. That's kind of the point of having it; you can't prosecute someone under the age of criminal responsibility. It's an absolute presumption of every legal system that has such a concept that someone under the age of responsibility cannot be found guilty of a crime.



An 11 year old - of any nationality, anglo-saxon or not - would certainly understand that he shouldn't assault a referee. He may not completely understand exactly how serious an offence it is.


And this is exactly why Sweden, for instance, sets the age of responsibility at 15. That doesn't mean that they just shrug and wave the kid on; see here for the Swedish reaction to a 10-year-old who killed another child (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/8957837/Sweden-strangling-10-year-old-boy-confesses-to-killing-four-year-old.html), but the emphasis is entirely on rehabilitation and not punishment.

didds
16-06-15, 14:06
South Auckland itself has issues as a region. .

back in the day when i hitch hiked constantly around NZ, one of the rules of thumb was that when hitching south out of Auckland you only took a ride that was going SOUTH of Auckland

didds

L'irlandais
16-06-15, 20:06
... What is the world coming to?On-line haters are a bad breed ; they should take a good look at their own behaviour before ranting on about others. Many reported cases of people taking their own lives following "mauling" by such arseholes. Not defending the 11 year old, but whatever punishment he deserves, it doesn't include verbal abuse for passing STRaNGe adults.

A few seasons back we had a 6 year old get in trouble for punching another player at a mini rugby training session. When his old man turned up (reeking of whiskey) he lashed out at the boy. We quickly realised the child was only reproducing behaviour from the family home. His Dad was a decent bloke and had been helping us out all season, up until that incident ; which saw them both banned from the club. Following a visit from the Social worker the next week, he returned to the club accompanied by his missus, and apoligised to the coaching staff.

Browner
16-06-15, 22:06
........he returned to the club accompanied by his missus, and apoligised to the coaching staff.

Maybe she threatened to beat him (again), if he didn't :biggrin: !

Browner
16-06-15, 22:06
Maybe she threatened to beat him (again), if he didn't :biggrin: !

"Tackled him to the ground" ...how big was this 11 year old? , or how petit was the referee ??

L'irlandais
17-06-15, 17:06
Maybe she threatened to beat him (again), if he didn't :biggrin: !The guy was a former boxer, I get the feeling that (sadly) he was the one lashing out. Domestic violence is no laughing matter. I think his missus realised that
i) helping at the club was good for both him and the kids.
ii) that she naively thought the ban would be overlooked, to give him a second chance.

I drove him, his two boys and the family car home, to diffuse the situation in the clubhouse, on the day of the incident , as the bloke felt everybody was set against him. Thankfully he was genuinely a good bloke underneath & gave me his car keys.

Browner
17-06-15, 17:06
Domestic violence isnt gender exclusive, my x-wife thrashed that concept into me !:biggrin:

Don't believe me, http://www.cosc.ie/en/COSC/Pages/WP09000005

beckett50
17-06-15, 19:06
Not sure why the constituent body are getting involved?

Here in the UK it is my understanding that issues such as this for a lad so young are dealt with at the Club/School level.

On a separate note, one has to question the involvement of the coaching staff and the assistance they were affording the match official? After all the coaches will know the temperament of their players and, as the report alludes, if there had been some shenanigans one would hope that the coaches would have been involved in some "chats" with the referee regarding the temper of the game? Whilst I am not advocating not issuing YCs at youth rugby one does have the opportunity to 'manage substitutions' for the benefit of all concerned.

Whilst this is a serious breach of protocol I hope the lad is dealt with fairly and that the referee is afforded the appropriate levels of support as well.

crossref
18-06-15, 09:06
Not sure why the constituent body are getting involved?

Here in the UK it is my understanding that issues such as this for a lad so young are dealt with at the Club/School level.



normally yes but with some exceptions, for example


3.3 Cases covered by RFU Regulation 19.1.14(f) (serious injury), 19.1.14(g)
(cases under police investigation), 19.1.14(h) (racial abuse cases) shall be
referred to the NYDS who shall determine whether the Club, the CB or the
RFU (if agreed by the RFU Head of Discipline) should deal with the matter.

and a catch-all


1.6 The RFU Head of Discipline has the power to deal with any case or to
direct how a case is to be dealt with.

I think one purpose of this is to allow the RFU to intervene in any case where it is felt that the club/school discipline process was mistaken or acted inappropriately. Another might be to reserve the ability to deal with any very unusual cases - such this one.

No doubt the NZ Regs contain similar clauses.

For anyone who wants to look it up, it's Reg 19 App 6
http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/regulations/

beckett50
19-06-15, 17:06
Crossref, thanbk you for the clarification.

L'irlandais
07-07-15, 11:07
Not sure why the constituent body are getting involved?..Hi,
In the case of the incident at our club, one of the Mums watching the minis worked for social services ; it wasn't the club who alerted them.
However some of the coaching staff were going to phone the police, if the Dad attempted to drive home afterwards ; due to his drunken state.
I don't think the club would enforce a lifetime ban on the kid, if he turned up now looking to play U13s.

viper492
07-07-15, 13:07
Do we know how old the referee in question was? Because at many of our junior games the referees aren't much older than the players and are generally not the biggest kids... People calling for life bans are over the top but there's a good chance that there's been a referee lost as a result of this player's actions - it needs to be appropriately dealt with... Some sort of constructive punishment involving learning to referee and the kid actually making an effort at it would be a good solution.

Btw, do we know what his punishment was?

andyscott
16-07-15, 12:07
He needs a huge ban, a deterent has to be there even for 11 year olds.

FFS stop being so bloody soft on them.

Browner
16-07-15, 13:07
In most of mainland Europe their age of criminal responsibility is set at at least 12, if not 14 or higher, and they often think that the Anglo-Saxon world is being ridiculous and barbaric by setting it lower.
Food for thought.

I can imagine that a mothers eyes might 'Bulge' & lack any appetite for such food.
IIUC, A couple of notorious 10yr olds were held to be criminally responsible for their actions in NW UK.

You'd have to know the details of the case involving the OP referee assault, but if possible Id favour a extended period of community rugby {refereeing?} development for the player. However sometimes even valiant attempts at can prove unsuccessful hashtag=venables.

ps....11 yr old assaulting an adult has gotta be rare, one wonders if Mike Tyson is in his genealogical ancestry?!

L'irlandais
16-07-15, 21:07
?..
Btw, do we know what his punishment was?unfortunately due to some misplaced comments, by the usual culprits here on RRF, the poor chap got the death penalty in the end. :-(

Well done Chaps. Balanced view as ever.