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Marko
03-08-15, 13:08
Can anyone make sense of the new rules for U11 rugby with regard to kicking. It seems to me that the non-kicking side can get a scrum under alost any circumstances, even if they knock the ball on!
thanks

OB..
03-08-15, 14:08
Can anyone make sense of the new rules for U11 rugby with regard to kicking. It seems to me that the non-kicking side can get a scrum under alost any circumstances, even if they knock the ball on!
thanksWelcome Marko.

Where can we find these rules? (link or quote would help)

Phil E
03-08-15, 14:08
U11 New Rules of Play.

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/Governance/Regulations/01/30/44/31/RFU_Regulation_15_Appendix_1_U11_New_Rules_of_Play _Neutral.pdf

OB..
03-08-15, 15:08
Thanks, Phil E.
I take it these are the problem rules9. [...]
d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team
from where the ball is touched.
e) If from a kick the non-kicking team plays the ball and it goes backward, advantage can be played to the non-kicking team. Where no advantage is gained a scrum should be awarded to the non-kicking
team.

I agree something looks wrong!

I assume they don't want too much kicking; they also want players to try and catch the ball when kicked but know they will often fail.

Why don't they use the term "knock-on"? Even assuming that forward and backward mean "in the same direction as the flight" does not make sense.

I'll see if I can get some answers.

Camquin
03-08-15, 16:08
I guess it prevent a side who has a boy with a strong boot simply punting down field and winning a scrum from the knock on before everyone has learned to catch. (I expect a chorus of disapproval from down under about how we are wrapping players in cotton wool).
But, if we could get rid of aimless kicking from the adult game, many spectators would be happy.

If you kick and the opponent can get a hand to it before it bounces, they will earn a scrum or a free pass.
If the ball bounces it is game on.
So kick into space or use a grubber.

Camquin

didds
03-08-15, 17:08
AIUI Camquin is spot on. it is supposed to promote kicking-with-purpose. Poor kicks that can be played by a defender before bouncing cannot in effect gain an advantage.

Does that NRoP regulation say where the scrum should be taken? From where the ball was played by the defender or from where the kick was made? If the foimer the kicking team can still gain ground if not possession.

U11 scrums - are they contested? (I don't think so).

didds

OB..
03-08-15, 19:08
U11 scrums - are they contested? (I don't think so).

diddsRule 12 (d)Only the hookers may strike for the ball. Neither team may push.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
04-08-15, 12:08
I think the rules are you're not allowed to kick under 11s anymore.

I'll have rely on my game management skills.

:biggrin:

OB..
04-08-15, 18:08
I have asked some people involved in setting up these rules.

They want to allow players to kick, and also encourage players to attempt the much more difficult skill of catching. To that end they do indeed intend that any player who tries to catch the ball can be sure his team will not lose out. At worst they will get a scrum at the point where the ball was played..

This should encourage kickers to kick into space.

This was trialled in three areas and worked well.

I suspect that teams without a good kicker will not kick much except under duress - when it will probably go horribly wrong and make them even less inclined to try. However teams do need to develop good kickers, so they have to learn at some stage.

I have some concern that players will have to unlearn some of the habits they (hopefully) develop this season, but it does not seem as bad as it at first appears.

menace
05-08-15, 02:08
Thanks, Phil E.
I take it these are the problem rules9. [...]
d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team
from where the ball is touched.
e) If from a kick the non-kicking team plays the ball and it goes backward, advantage can be played to the non-kicking team. Where no advantage is gained a scrum should be awarded to the non-kicking
team.

I agree something looks wrong!

I assume they don't want too much kicking; they also want players to try and catch the ball when kicked but know they will often fail.

Why don't they use the term "knock-on"? Even assuming that forward and backward mean "in the same direction as the flight" does not make sense.

I'll see if I can get some answers.

Bwaasa haaaa haaa. And this is why your backs can't catch.....lucky your forwards can scrimmage to make up for the failings of your backs!
:biggrin::biggrin:
God you guys find ways to hamper and limit the ability of your players to exploit their strengths and exploit their oppositions weaknesses.


(I expect a chorus of disapproval from down under about how we are wrapping players in cotton wool).

Not true.......I was thinking bubble wrap.
Just can't think of the best tune to sing it too? Possibly an Elton John number? Candle in the wind maybe?


I think the rules are you're not allowed to kick under 11s anymore.

Definitely not down here...their mothers get upset and you get charged with assault. Bada-bing bada-bang!:wink::biggrin:


, but it does not seem as bad as it at first appears.
Oh yes it does!

We'll keep our Israel Folou's if it's all the same to you.

(God I had fun with that lot....thank you RFU for giving me a laugh)

Phil E
05-08-15, 08:08
Menace......none of that was helpful to the OP who is a first time poster.

OB..
05-08-15, 10:08
Menace......none of that was helpful to the OP who is a first time poster.I must admit I didn't find it very helpful either.

My grandson will be playing these new rules shortly, and is already starting to practice with his friends in the local park.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-08-15, 11:08
My grandson will be playing these new rules shortly, and is already starting to practice with his friends in the local park.



Good lad! Hopefully he will be practicing catching and not practicing knocking to gain a scrum. :biggrin:

I think menace's "well made" points are valid and there is something counterintuitive about these particular rules especially as they (the boys and girls) will be required to start doing it right at some point beyond U11.

I'm sure Marko was clear as to the rules after the first couple of posts from you and Phil and will take menace's post as a never to be passed up opportunity to have a dig at the Poms/Saffas/Ozzies/Scots/Welsh/New Zealanders (delete as applicable).

I can see the thinking behind the rules but similarly I can see where menace is coming from and I don't think it muddies the waters in terms of his post not helping Marko's understanding. You and Phil sorted it quite succinctly from where I sit. I'm sure Marko will come back if he needs to on this particular point - if we haven't already scared him away.

Marko - welcome. It was an excellent question.

menace
05-08-15, 14:08
Thank you LLP...I'm glad you managed to perhaps crack a grin.

OB..
05-08-15, 15:08
I think one problem could be that under some circumstances you get a scrum if you fail to catch properly, and under others you don't. I wonder if all coaches will apply the rules accurately.

My observation from last season was that nobody obeyed the instruction that the nearest players should form the front row. This time, with hooking required, I doubt if any coach will follow that. I suspect only a few players will be trained to hook. While I can see the desire to avoid early specialisation, particularly since the kids are still growing and may well change shape and hence position over the next 5-10 years, it seems unrealistic to expect everybody to learn to hook. You don't really learn the position until you play it regularly, and they can't all do that. Moreover the skill is not a transferable one like tackling, kicking, catching, and passing.

crossref
05-08-15, 16:08
also by 10 yrs old preferences and skills emerge : some boys will want to scrum, and others won't.
It can be a bit tiresome to be constantly shuffling them into roles they don't want to do. It is supposed to be fun after all..

my view is that early specialisation is a moot danger anyway : as my son's team went from U7 to U18 I saw all sorts of changes in positions, for all the reasons that you mention + plus another one : needs must. I really think this is the norm, not the excpetions.

Marko
13-08-15, 13:08
Can anyone make sense of the new rules for U11 rugby with regard to kicking. It seems to me that the non-kicking side can get a scrum under alost any circumstances, even if they knock the ball on!
thanks

Thanks for all the helpful comments; at least I can assume that the rules are worded as intended and there is a reason for them , whatever I might think of them (and I am not sure yet, until I try it all out).

I actually did enjoy the comments from down under, and am confident that our boys will let the talking happen on the field as they did in the cricket.

Dan_A
03-09-15, 21:09
Follow up u11 NROP kicking question.

Blue are pinged for offside. Red kick to touch to gain ground. Who gets the free pass to restart the game?

Camquin
04-09-15, 03:09
As I read it

"Any terms defined in these Rules shall have the meanings set out in the World Rugby
Laws of the Game."

"5. Free kick
a) After the following infringements a free kick will be awarded to the
non-offending team:
i. Foul Play
ii. Offside"

Therefore you are awarding a free kick not a penalty and so the non-kicking side get possession.

Dan_A
04-09-15, 08:09
Yes, that's what I arrived at but it just seems likely to be contentious. Coaches/parents will expect it to be a penalty not free kick. Definitely one for the referee briefings before festivals.

didds
04-09-15, 14:09
well, we're back to whether the wording is deliberate or a bit of a cock-up with no consideration as to the impact of the possibly incorrect wording.

Does this mean then (cos the rule looks quite explicit after all) that PKs are awarded at u11 only for foul play?

and one has to ask what in effect the difference is - aside from free kicks cannot gain ground direct to touch.

And I wonder how many coach-refs actually award PKs anyway for offisde?

didds

Dan_A
04-09-15, 15:09
well, we're back to whether the wording is deliberate or a bit of a cock-up with no consideration as to the impact of the possibly incorrect wording.

Does this mean then (cos the rule looks quite explicit after all) that PKs are awarded at u11 only for foul play?



From the link earlier in the thread, the u11 rules now only have free pass and free kick offences. There is no mention of penalties.

I agree that it's probably just an unintended consequence rather than a deliberate thing.

Camquin
05-09-15, 00:09
Didds no foul play is a free kick. There are NO penalties in the new U11 laws.

"Free kick
a) After the following infringements a free kick will be awarded to the
non-offending team:
i. Foul Play ..."

didds
05-09-15, 15:09
cheers camquin

so - pureky for academic interest - do we then think that the terminology used ie "free kick" as a deliberate one ie it IS a FK and so no gain in ground for a direct kick to touch (oputside of 22) and turnover of throw? Or its a mistake and the wording "free kick" is a hangover from earlier age groups (when such a touch kick tactic is not available) and hasn;t been thought through wrt whether it shoud be a penalty kick, as per the "full" game?

didds

didds