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crossref
05-10-15, 11:10
Everyone remembers Alain Rowland giving a RC to a sub (Will Skinner) for deliberately catching a ball to prevent the oppo having a quick throw.

exactly the same thing happened in my game on Saturday --- should I have done the same?

didds
05-10-15, 11:10
why wouldn't you have? ie what went though your mind?

Its a cynical play, and if it genuinely prevented a possible QTI...

I guess you would jave to make the distinction between a deliberate act and a hard kick that hits the sub who catches the ball as a reflex action - but that would be fairly easy to spot I suspect!

didds

Jacko
05-10-15, 12:10
Everyone remembers Alain Rowland giving a RC to a sub (Will Skinner) for deliberately catching a ball to prevent the oppo having a quick throw.

exactly the same thing happened in my game on Saturday --- should I have done the same?

Worth bearing in mind that the team had already been warned before the incident which lead to a RC.

ddjamo
05-10-15, 13:10
pk/15m would be a minimum. no time for that crap.

crossref
05-10-15, 13:10
pk/15m would be a minimum. no time for that crap.

not sure you can do that?
if I remember right even after Rolland gave a RC, they just had a lineout.

Shelflife
05-10-15, 13:10
Was it not a second Yellow that Skinner got ?

What would be the implications of YC a sub ? not allowed on for 10mins and danger of a second YC when he came on ?

Pen kick min for me.

crossref
05-10-15, 13:10
No, Skinner got a straight RC.
Previously a Quins physio had done the same thing, and AR had spoken to him. So I guess he'd effectively warned the team.

In both instances I am sure there was just a lineout. I am not sure you can award an on-field PK for the actions of a substitute.

didds
05-10-15, 14:10
Was it not a second Yellow that Skinner got ?

What would be the implications of YC a sub ?

.


That's an excellent question!

a 2nd YC = RC is C&O.

But how to handle a YC sub. The only effective approach woud be he coludn't be subbed on for ten minutes, cos outside last-man-standing he would never ever be called to "come one" and start his 10 minutes in the bin!(tough luck I hear ;-) )

didds

Dixie
05-10-15, 15:10
Crossref, a possible difference between your game and Rolland's is the size of the gap between the touchline and the spectators. It was in this gap that Skinner earned his card, and it was obvious to him that he was interfering in what should have been an area demarcated for the players alone. If your game had a roped-off playing area with spectators behind the rope, plus technical areas you had previously enforced (so subs not allowed to track the play up and down the touchline), then you also had a demarcated playing area, and should have carded. More likely, I suspect, is that the ball came down in the general vicinity of the substitute who happened to be standing there in a way you would not have otherwise bothered about, and who caught the ball in a desire to be helpful rather than in a desire to frustrate.

But you know what you saw - should you have carded?

crossref
05-10-15, 15:10
my game was exactly as you envisage: no marked off area, a lot of subs, tracking up and down the touchline, quite a few spectators actually - perhaps 40-50, some of were watchin both my game and keeping an eye on the game on the pitch behind them alongside.


BUT I definitely think he caught the ball deliberately to deny the QTI !


At the moment a RC did flash through my mind, because of the Skinner incident, which we have discussed here - but I discarded it, it didn't feel right, it felt like it would have been an over-reaction.


On reflection one thing that crosses my mind now, which didn't at the time, is that I don't actually know for certain that he was a sub - he was dressed in kit but it was the home team and he could have been from the pitch next door or he could have played in an earlier game (one had kicked off an hour before mine) and be just a spectator at mine.

(I mean, he probably was a sub, but if I had carded him, I bet that by Monday morning it would have occured them all that for all I knew he was a spectator, so prob a good job I didn't)

didds
05-10-15, 15:10
I read ages ago, maybe here, of a player being RC'd early in the game and ending up being subbed on in the game next door shortly after!

didds

The Fat
05-10-15, 20:10
Whilst I do like djamo's idea of a PK on the 15m line, I'm not sure it could be supported in law other than when an infringement occurs when the ball is out of play (not sure if it is worded like that or if it says when the ball is dead which in itself throws up another problem seeing that the ball is not dead whilst a QTI is still an option), and a PK is awarded "where play would next restart". Again, this throws up yet another problem if the ball was kicked from outside the kicker's 22 directly to touch (i.e. would you award the 15m PK where the ball crossed the touch line or back at the LoT?
In the OP's scenario, (community level rugby), I think I'd stop play for the lineout but call time off and tell the coach that if it happened again and I felt that it was a deliberate act to stop a QTI, there would be consequences. It's then up to the coach to control his bench. Probably best to get the other coach in for that little conversation as well so that both teams have been warned.

crossref
05-10-15, 21:10
one of the coaches had subbed himself on to the pitch by then (it was that sort of game!) but I like what you are saying.

ddjamo
05-10-15, 22:10
if a non player were to take away a legal opportunity there would be something punitive happening - period. I'm talking about a guy going out of his way to disrupt play. thankfully ontario is run very well and the league I referee typically uses technical zones or the players are behind the barriers/ropes.

I will maintain that the touch the ball/qt off law is in there to keep the throwing in side from gaining an advantage (eg - sub bats ball back to the chaser) and not to give the non throwing side a way to stop the qt attempt.

ctrainor
05-10-15, 22:10
Somebody who went deliberately out of his way to disrupt play, I think you would be within your rights to ask for him to be removed from the playing enclosure before the game continued. I've asked for abusive people to be removed before. I would also be dropping an email to my society explaining what went on. It could be happening every week.

Taff
05-10-15, 23:10
Worth bearing in mind that the team had already been warned before the incident which lead to a RC.
Good point. You could come across as a bit of a jobsworth if you were to card a sub straight off.


... On reflection one thing that crosses my mind now, which didn't at the time, is that I don't actually know for certain that he was a sub - he was dressed in kit but it was the home team and he could have been from the pitch next door or he could have played in an earlier game (one had kicked off an hour before mine) and be just a spectator at mine. (I mean, he probably was a sub, but if I had carded him, I bet that by Monday morning it would have occured them all that for all I knew he was a spectator, so prob a good job I didn't)
If he was a sub, his name would have been on the Team Sheet though surely. I suppose he could give you a fictitious name, but not much you can do about that.

Pegleg
06-10-15, 07:10
pk/15m would be a minimum. no time for that crap.

What law supports your call?


...
(I mean, he probably was a sub, but if I had carded him, I bet that by Monday morning it would have occured them all that for all I knew he was a spectator, so prob a good job I didn't)

Was he on the team sheet? Get it BEFORE the game. Job sorted.


I read ages ago, maybe here, of a player being RC'd early in the game and ending up being subbed on in the game next door shortly after!

Include that in the Card report.


Somebody who went deliberately out of his way to disrupt play, I think you would be within your rights to ask for him to be removed from the playing enclosure before the game continued. I've asked for abusive people to be removed before. I would also be dropping an email to my society explaining what went on. It could be happening every week.

Spot on.

I can't see how you can give a PK the other comments are easily dealt with (except where there are no team sheets for whatever reason).

crossref
06-10-15, 08:10
we don't have team sheets in merit table games, either before or after
and neither do we have roped off pitch, nor a technical area
often there isn't a coach (though in this game both teams did have one)
it's all a lot less formal than some of you are used to, in different countries, or higher up the structure - after the game there isn't even a scoresheet to sign...

Pegleg
06-10-15, 08:10
All our league or cup games at any level have team sheets here. Obviously it gives you problems. I'd report the situation as best I could and leave it to the DC to sort in your situation.

tim White
09-10-15, 18:10
Make sure everyone within 5m of the touchline is in the box/technical zone -after that it is up to the kicker/players not to put the ball out there.

not much else you can do -both sides would probably do it :shrug:

crossref
09-10-15, 19:10
So now we have the whole range of views from it doesn't matter through to red card!

Paule23
20-10-15, 11:10
So now we have the whole range of views from it doesn't matter through to red card!

Just reinforces a lot of what we do is about judgement based on what we see (oh, and those pesky laws!)

L'irlandais
20-10-15, 14:10
The truth of the matter is the law 19.2 (http://laws.worldrugby.org/?highlight=Quick%20throw&law=19.2) didn't anticipate such gamesmanship ; you have to take a view. For me red carding a sub seems harsh, It's not liked he punched somebody. how about 10.4 (n)

10.4(n). Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.

If play would restart at a 5-metre scrum, the mark for the penalty kick is at that place of the scrum.

If play would restart with a drop-out, the non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick anywhere on the 22-metre line.

If a penalty kick is awarded but the offending team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee cautions or orders off the guilty player and advances the mark for the penalty kick 10 metres. This covers both the original offence and the misconduct.

If a penalty kick is awarded to a team but a player of that team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee will caution or send-off the guilty player, declare the kick disallowed, and award a penalty kick to the opposing team.
If an offence is committed outside the playing area while the ball is still in play, and if that offence is not covered by any other part of this Law, the penalty kick is awarded on the 15-metre line, in line with where the offence happened.

crossref
20-10-15, 14:10
10.4n covers actions by players - I don't think you can give a PK for an action by a sub (or coach/physio/waterboy)

I thnk the game must just restart with a lineout

The question is whether to discipline the sub, and there you only really have three options
1 - do nothing it's quite OK for a sub to touch the ball to prevent a QTI
2 - a stern word
3 - a red card

Phil E
20-10-15, 15:10
Hypothetical thought.

If the sub hasn't been on the pitch yet...................

Show him a yellow card and tell the coach, the minute he steps onto the pitch he will go in the bin for 10 minutes.

Coach will never put him on, the sub doesn't get to play, and he might think twice about it next time :biggrin:

crossref
20-10-15, 15:10
thinking outside the protocols? :)

I don't think you could get away with that, though, no backing in Law.

Rushforth
20-10-15, 15:10
Two weeks earlier:


But how to handle a YC sub. The only effective approach woud be he coludn't be subbed on for ten minutes, cos outside last-man-standing he would never ever be called to "come one" and start his 10 minutes in the bin!(tough luck I hear ;-)

Phil E
20-10-15, 16:10
thinking outside the protocols? :)

I don't think you could get away with that, though, no backing in Law.

That's why it was a
Hypothetical thought.



Two weeks earlier:

I always was a slow developer :redface:

L'irlandais
20-10-15, 17:10
10.4n covers actions by players - I don't think you can give a PK for an action by a sub (or coach/physio...the LotG mentions cards only in relation to players. Same difference. If your not going to penalize the sub's unsportlike action, then you can hardly card him either.
I guess the suggestion to have a word is best in the context of OP.

crossref
20-10-15, 18:10
the LotG mentions cards only in relation to players. Same difference. If your not going to penalize the sub's unsportlike action, then you can hardly card him either..

hmm - I thought the Laws explicitly gave the referee the power to order coaches / physios / subs / ball boys and the like out of the playing enclosure.

but I have to say I can't find it in the Laws..

crossref
20-10-15, 18:10
Here's the report on the Will Skinner incident. Note that he had come off the pitch, injured, and had no further part to play in the game anyway. The card had no impact on the game, but had the effect of triggering a disciplinary

this incident raised two very novel points, both of which we disucssed at the time

1 - is it an offence, and is it a RC offence for a sub to touch the ball to deny a QTI (Ans - Yes, but caveat that a warning had previsouly been issued)

2 - when a player is off the pitch for a YC and time has expired, is he entitled to come on when the ball is in touch? ie removing the possibiity of a QTI, or can the oppo take the QTI anyway leavin him on the touchline (Ans - it's referee discretion)


http://www.epcrugby.com/images/content/ERC_Hearing_Decision_Will_Skinner_Harlequins.pdf

chbg
20-10-15, 19:10
hmm - I thought the Laws explicitly gave the referee the power to order coaches / physios / subs / ball boys and the like out of the playing enclosure.

but I have to say I can't find it in the Laws..

No - only the Playing Area (6.A.5). The other place to look would be RFU Regulations, but nothing obvious there.

L'irlandais
20-10-15, 20:10
Well, like ddjamo suggested a penalty seems fair, if a QT was on.
That's why I thought this Law has it nailed, Zombie ball and all ;
:
10.4(n). Misconduct while the ball is out of play...

If an offence is committed outside the playing area while the ball is still in play, and if that offence is not covered by any other part of this Law, the penalty kick is awarded on the 15-metre line, in line with where the offence happened.
World Rugby may back up the likes of Alain Rolland, not sure who would back up at decision at Grassroots to RC a sub.

chbg
20-10-15, 20:10
However 10.4(n) starts "a player must not". Therefore it does not, certainly, apply to a coach etc. Can it apply to a Substitute?

Law 3 Definitions: A Team consists of fifteen players who start the match, plus any additional replacements and/or substitutions.

crossref
20-10-15, 20:10
player means one of the fifteen, I think

but in terms of denying quick throws, if it's wrong for a sub it must be wrong for a coach or physio, and vice versa.

crossref
20-10-15, 20:10
World Rugby may back up the likes of Alain Rolland, not sure who would back up at decision at Grassroots to RC a sub.

It was European Rugby who backed him up. I am not so confident WR would.
Grassroots - well, you'd have a good precedent to back you up.
BUT if I did it, I'd want to be able to say I'd already issued a warning, as Rolland did. Let's not depart from the precedent.

Phil E
21-10-15, 09:10
World Rugby may back up the likes of Alain Rolland, not sure who would back up at decision at Grassroots to RC a sub.

At the moment World Rugby's backing up of its referees is a little suspect.

More likely to throw them under a bus and hang them out to dry.