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AntonyGoodman
01-09-16, 11:09
Hi "Oh Wise Ones",

First year of uncontested scrums for us in England this year (U13 NRoP)

My question is: How widespread is the Aussie "Mayday" call in England?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhPpQ5sLeI8

We would love to teach this as part of introducing the scrum to the kids, but not much point if the opposition haven't come across it. Although maybe we should send out something to the people we play against, well in advance of our fixtures, if this is the case?

Thoughts welcome.

Thanks,

Antony

didds
01-09-16, 11:09
Not at all is the answer.

Maybe it should be.

didds

Decorily
01-09-16, 14:09
Never even heard of it until now.

Worth considering... though not sure about the players dropping to their knees bit!!

crossref
01-09-16, 14:09
you can't possibly introduce this unilaterally -- it's something that would need to be done by the RFU, so that everyone knows what is going on.

DocY
01-09-16, 15:09
It does sound a good idea, but as others have said, would need to be done by the RFU. That said, a blood-curdling scream tends to make players stop and the referee blow his whistle.

I love point 5 in this description! http://www.redsrugby.com.au/Portals/10/Files/Grassroots/P&P/Safety_Directives_2007.pdf

AntonyGoodman
01-09-16, 15:09
you can't possibly introduce this unilaterally

Well, I completely agree that it would be ideal that England Rugby did this. But as we only play friendly fixtures, and we know them all fairly well from having played the same teams for many years, it may be fairly simple to implement. Having said that, is the real problem here that we would be introducing something not sanctioned by England or World Rugby? Are we saying that we don't know that it is safe? Or is the problem that we are introducing something that they may use later in an environment that people don't know what the hell they are on about?

Following on from that, what happens as Aussie players move up the grades and start playing internationally? Do they shout something else? Does it never happen? What about touring sides visiting from NZ (or any other country for that matter), does someone explain the protocol?

Thanks,

Antony

DocY
01-09-16, 16:09
Your situation doesn't sound quite as I (and I suspect others) had imagined.

I'd suggest that if you are only playing friendlies and you're on good enough terms with the opposition you could agree to do it. The only potential safety problem I could see is if your players know that shouting 'mayday' means no more pushing, but the opposition don't and your players all relax.

I might have miss understood, but I thought this was only up to U13s and there would be some way of phasing it out above that. And I'd not expect matches against touring teams until U16s, at least, but it's a long time since I had anything to do with that level (and we played the same rules as adult rugby then).

Dickie E
01-09-16, 23:09
Your situation doesn't sound quite as I (and I suspect others) had imagined.

I'd suggest that if you are only playing friendlies and you're on good enough terms with the opposition you could agree to do it. The only potential safety problem I could see is if your players know that shouting 'mayday' means no more pushing, but the opposition don't and your players all relax.

I might have miss understood, but I thought this was only up to U13s and there would be some way of phasing it out above that. And I'd not expect matches against touring teams until U16s, at least, but it's a long time since I had anything to do with that level (and we played the same rules as adult rugby then).

It applies to all junior games here up to U19. Touring teams are never aware of this protocol so I give them an overview at pre-match. If you do introduce it locally, the ref will need to know too as he/she plays a vital part.

crossref
02-09-16, 09:09
Having said that, is the real problem here that we would be introducing something not sanctioned by England or World Rugby? Are we saying that we don't know that it is safe? Or is the problem that we are introducing something that they may use later in an environment that people don't know what the hell they are on about?

you are introducing a situation where in some games there is a mayday call, but in other games there isn't, some players will know what a mayday call is, and some won't, some refs will know what a mayday call is, but others won't... etc

and how will you train anyone? have you ever had any training on it? or do you just read the .pdf and go from there?

also - I am not sure that the ARU procedure is generally accepted to be a good idea : its notable that it used only in ARU, no one else has adopted it


In an environment where we are generally cautious about dealing with injuries, lest we make things worse, it's quite big thing to unilaterally introduce something like this .. there's a risk that an ad hoc poorly understood procedure, poorly executed could make things worse.

I found this mildy relevant report
http://www.academia.edu/13434239/Improving_the_diffusion_of_safety_initiatives_in_c ommunity_sport

AntonyGoodman
02-09-16, 09:09
All good points.

Thanks,

Antony

DocY
02-09-16, 11:09
also - I am not sure that the ARU procedure is generally accepted to be a good idea : its notable that it used only in ARU, no one else has adopted it


I imagine a procedure involving an intentional face plant puts everyone else off!

nottheorgangrinder
02-09-16, 15:09
Hi Anthony

So we're U13s this season, but have been using the old Continuum variations up until now so have had contested scrums for the last three seasons. I had some great words of advice from the guys on RR before my first season of them and, whilst I don't consider myself sagely in any way, shape or form, will gladly pass them on to you, too.

I found there was an awful variation in the way scrums were reffed (still do...) and a lot of refs don't carry out a pre match brief, which I think is an essential part of ensuring safe scrummaging.

My top tips would be:

Pre match brief with the forwards, explaining you will control the formation of the scrum with CBS, looking for nice long binds from the props, and everyone to be nice and straight, tower of power, etc. Emphasise you will be reffing with safety at the top of your priority list, if anyone has an issue let them know you want them to shout loudly and you will blow the whistle. Everything stops when you blow the whistle. No pushing till the ball comes in, no pushing more than 1.5m (which I presume is still the case this year, although I can't find reference to it in Appendix 7).

At the first scrum, "hookers left of the mark", remind them of the points you made before the match, and reiterate no pushing till the ball comes in.

Control the engagement (the amount of times you hear "crouchbindsetyesnine!!!", even now, after three seasons of contested scrummaging horrifies me), make sure you're happy with body positions, etc before moving on to the next stage. After set, it's worth checking both sets of props for long arm binds - even going around to the other side to check "wait for me, 9, I'm just checking binds". This will will go some way to ensuring safe, stable scrums.

Once the scrum is up and running, keep the whistle close to your mouth to blow up as soon as you see a collapse, wheeling, etc.

As the game goes on, and they get more scrums under their belts, let them know how well they're doing, have a quick word on specific issues if you need to ("tighty, can you just pop your inside shoulder for me", "longer bind, please, loosehead", "get your bum down a bit hooker", or variations on those themes, tend to be the most used phrases for me...). Keep everything light and positive and they respond really well.

Dont be afraid to reset if you're not happy, safety-wise.

...and don't forget the sneaky half backs taking advantage of your diligence towards scrum safety, as they blatantly encroach their respective offside lines whilst you're not paying attention to them!

Cheers
NTOG

TigerCraig
06-09-16, 04:09
I imagine a procedure involving an intentional face plant puts everyone else off!

Has saved at least 2 guys that I know of from serious ongoing injury.

TigerCraig
06-09-16, 04:09
It applies to all junior games here up to U19. Touring teams are never aware of this protocol so I give them an overview at pre-match. If you do introduce it locally, the ref will need to know too as he/she plays a vital part.

I refererred Leeds Grammar last year on a tour. It was their last game so were very well aware of it by the time I had them

Dickie E
06-09-16, 04:09
I refererred Leeds Grammar last year on a tour. It was their last game so were very well aware of it by the time I had them

I reffed them early in the tour. There's half a chance that it was me who introduced them to it :)

OB..
06-09-16, 11:09
I refererred Leeds Grammar last year on a tour. An interesting coinage, which is presumably a portmanteau word for a referee making mistakes :biggrin:

tim White
06-09-16, 20:09
Or, I referrrrOHBOLLOCKS