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davsas
21-11-16, 23:11
Ok, so u14 have uncontested line outs, meaning the opposition cannot compete, but the hooker of the throwing team throws the ball in not straight. Do you penalise as the other team cannot go for it anyway?

i didn't and allowed them to play on, as it had no bearing on the flow of the play or contest for the ball, as there could not legal be one. My only thought about why I should ping it was to teach them that they should be throwing it straight ready for when it is contested.

thoughts?

leaguerefaus
22-11-16, 03:11
I think you're right not to ping it, but you're also right that they need to learn to throw straight. How about a do-over the first time they get it wrong? Then maybe a penalty.

Camquin
22-11-16, 11:11
If it i not interfering with the oppositions options let play happen.
You might mention it to the coach at the end.
After all it is only November - they have until September to learn to throw.

With the girls we do not have this problem.
They go from U13 free pass to the combined U14/U15 with contested line outs, no lifting.

didds
22-11-16, 11:11
Ok, so u14 have uncontested line outs, meaning the opposition cannot compete, but the hooker of the throwing team throws the ball in not straight. Do you penalise as the other team cannot go for it anyway?

i didn't and allowed them to play on, as it had no bearing on the flow of the play or contest for the ball, as there could not legal be one. My only thought about why I should ping it was to teach them that they should be throwing it straight ready for when it is contested.

thoughts?

ping them .kindly ;-)

maybe with a couple of "let offs" and re-throws at this age group. But certainly not play on.

This is developmental stage rugby./ This is about developing skills for the NEXT phase of the game when they do have contested lineouts. The point is that they need to get this bit right for another time. Ignoring shonky throwing when "it doesn't matter" only means in a year's time they have to THEN get it right and it kills the entire point of THIS year's development opportunities.

And I will add that if any coaches get "clever" over it then they are missing the ENTIRE point of coaching these age group levels.

Didds
RFU Coach Developer.

Dickie E
22-11-16, 11:11
5 metres is a long way when you're 13. Maybe the young fella could take the throw a metre or 2 into FoP?

didds
22-11-16, 12:11
i have sympathy with Dickie E's point here. However, having coached many squads over the years at this age group I do find that in the whole they can throw 7m reasonably straight, and the non contested element takes out the extra pressure. They do struggle to throw it a further 2 or 3m to the middle ... and "never" manage back ball perhaps unsurprisingly. The whole non contest thing is to remove the pressure of not losing the throw, so whilst a stream of front ball isn't wonderful it should hopefully promote a decent straight enough throw, timed with a jumper/catcher and the chance for the game to develop from there.

If a thrower really is struggling to get a throw six to seven metres then maybe some other strategy is needed I would grant... but hopefully its not that dire overall.

I will add that in many years etc players at these age groups clearly never dop homework ie practice at home/away from the club), and coaches cannot unfortunately spend sections of every session working on throwers' skills, so there is a bit of a self perpetuating scenario here for throwers that struggle.

But I will still stand by my assertion that using immateriality/doesn't matter and playing on regardless is not helping these guys develop.

didds

davsas
22-11-16, 12:11
Thanks Didds, I agree with your statement about this being there to develop them ready for next season. I'm reffing them again this Saturday so will give then a few chances to get it straight before any sanction, different team this week so their hooker may be an ace thrower

AntonyGoodman
22-11-16, 17:11
England Rugby issued this guidance for U14 and U15 Lineouts.

3481

Hope you find it useful.

Thanks,

Antony

davsas
22-11-16, 17:11
England Rugby issued this guidance for U14 and U15 Lineouts.

3481

Hope you find it useful.

Thanks,

Antony

thats great. Where did you find that please, very useful

AntonyGoodman
22-11-16, 18:11
thats great. Where did you find that please, very useful

As far as I know it was sent to all clubs (i know it was sent to mine), I had been asking England Rugby a load of lineout questions and they emailed it to me directly, I assume I wasn't the only one!

Thanks,

Antony

crossref
22-11-16, 23:11
a secret email!

AntonyGoodman
23-11-16, 07:11
a secret email!

Yes, exactly! I don't know why they haven't either updated the rules for the age groups, or added the FAQ to the website.

crossref
23-11-16, 09:11
Yes, exactly! I don't know why they haven't either updated the rules for the age groups, or added the FAQ to the website.

in a moment someone will post 'there's no need - they sent an email, and website space costs money, you know.'

Camquin
23-11-16, 10:11
It is the second time it has been posted to this forum so not so secret - though I admit I had not committed it to memory.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?19908-RFU-Under-14-amp-Under-15-NRoP-Line-out/page2&highlight=u14+line+out

Phil E
23-11-16, 15:11
in a moment someone will post 'there's no need - they sent an email, and website space costs money, you know.'

:deadhorse:

crossref
23-11-16, 16:11
It is the second time it has been posted to this forum so not so secret -

a secret email is one that contains content that you can't find anywhere on the RFU/WR websites.
So if you haven't seen the email there will be stuff you do not know.

TigerCraig
23-11-16, 22:11
If line outs are uncontested, but you will get pinged for not straight throws, why wouldn't you just throw to the fat kid at 1 every time?

(still trying to believe uncontested lineouts exist above under 9's)

Pinky
24-11-16, 00:11
Uncontested to primary 7 (year 7) about 11 years of age in Scotland. Above that, contested but initially no lifting/support.

didds
24-11-16, 10:11
If line outs are uncontested, but you will get pinged for not straight throws, why wouldn't you just throw to the fat kid at 1 every time?

(still trying to believe uncontested lineouts exist above under 9's)


I suppose that could be done if your sole interest is winning the ball at a lineout.

come 12 months later that ploy isn't as good any longer.

It also really really stifles the options available to you (though caveats on that due to the almost certain throw to two at this age - see above)

It has absolutely no development value whatsoever - in the medium to long term it doesn't help at all.

Its not just about coaching to win at this age group. Or rather is SHOULDN'T be. IMO and E.

For years as an age group coach I have seen lineouts given short shrift at best in many AGs. To the extent that l/os exist of very little more than a "chuck the ball in and hope" scenario. Ive come into to help colts squads that have no discernible lineout skills and strategies other than the above. They get to this position because (IMO) their historical coaches didn't have the requisite knowledge to coach a meaningful lineout, don't find time to coach anything lineout orientated, or don't see it as important. In short there is no development. And more importantly the chuck it in and see what happens approach, allied to simple ruses to win the occasional ball (such as chuck it to the fat kid at #1) have no chance of being a standard strategy in a full on game at colts levels. In short the players have been let down massively by their coaching staff who failed to develop them. Ive seen colts age group coaches teaching the squads to slide the ball carrier backwards through the catch and maul... (no longer permissible of course) ... but ignoring the fact that their jumpers can't actually catch the bloody thing in the first place to use the skill.


I even see it happening at seniors level. where lineouts are practiced at a snail's pace, with no pressure, using the same calls and moves that failed to win any ball last Saturday.

This bloke has even blogged about it ;-)

https://web.archive.org/web/20110206153224/http://rugby-coaching-blog.com/2011/01/24/lineout-training-its-a-crime/



didds

crossref
24-11-16, 11:11
didds -- this is the EXACT PROBLEM with the current fashion of having Laws that change so much from year to year.

everyone wants to win games - the kids, the coaches the parents

so there is a massive incentive to coach the kids to take best advantage of TODAYs laws, the laws they are playing to this week.
Next year's Laws? we'll deal with them next year.

Obviosuly I understand the safety problems, which means that some elements of the game have to be delayed, but the current set up goes way beyond the needs of safety

didds
24-11-16, 12:11
everyone wants to win games - the kids, the coaches the parents

Well, I accept I probably get put in the tree hugging class here, but if coaches are merely interested in winning they will not IMO be likely to end up creating the best 19 year old rugby player they can.

That doesn't mean you coach to lose... but they should IMO be coaching to develop players that will win later in their life. Certainly coaching to win THIS WEEK does not help a holistic and long term development.


To take an extreme view of TC's suggestion above ... why not just permit the thrower to throw it straight to the scrum half and ignore the lineout completely other than a way to get 16 lumps to one side of the pitch out of the way?

didds

TigerCraig
24-11-16, 22:11
Well, I accept I probably get put in the tree hugging class here, but if coaches are merely interested in winning they will not IMO be likely to end up creating the best 19 year old rugby player they can.

That doesn't mean you coach to lose... but they should IMO be coaching to develop players that will win later in their life. Certainly coaching to win THIS WEEK does not help a holistic and long term development.


To take an extreme view of TC's suggestion above ... why not just permit the thrower to throw it straight to the scrum half and ignore the lineout completely other than a way to get 16 lumps to one side of the pitch out of the way?

didds

I agree if we were talking about 7 and 8 year olds - but we are talking about 14 and 15 year olds

We start contesting everything at Under 10, and start lifting at Under 13. We already get complaints about starting Premierships so late compared to other sports

andyfox
09-09-19, 15:09
England Rugby issued this guidance for U14 and U15 Lineouts.

3481

Hope you find it useful.

Thanks,

Antony

The link now seems to be broken - anyone still have the document please?

Thanks in advance
Andy

Phil E
09-09-19, 15:09
Try this

https://www.kentrefs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Age-Grade-FAQ-on-Lineout.pdf

andyfox
09-09-19, 17:09
Try this

https://www.kentrefs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Age-Grade-FAQ-on-Lineout.pdf

Thank you

chbg
09-09-19, 21:09
A pity that a wealth of information has been lost in the RFU website rejuvenation.

mcroker
21-09-19, 21:09
Itís still there in the age-grade resources section https://www.englandrugby.com/participation/coaching/age-grade-rugby/resources