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ChuckieB
03-09-17, 17:09
been watching the GK championship game between Hartpury and Bristol. I am bemused by the failure to see but one successful completion of a scrum without Bristol being pinged for not being able to stay square.

for those that will have been watching, I can see the Hartpury TH slipping his long bind from the shirt, on the "crouch", to the armpit once engaged. This surely can't be legal? It is thus forcing the Bristol player to turn in and allowing the Hartpury TH to stand up thereby winning multiple penalties and a subsequent YC for the Bristol LH.

Not once has the official taken to standing the problem side of side of the scrum to check?

SimonSmith
03-09-17, 18:09
Haven't seen it, but as described - that's basic scrum management.

I had a similar issue. I had to keep telling Blue 3 to bind higher on the back. His bind was on a leverage point on the Pink 1's arm, and causing the fold in. Told him once that he needed to correct it, and made a point of standing next to him for a few scrums. 15 minutes later, it went in on his side, and his arm was in the wrong place. One PK, and issue solved.

Phil E
04-09-17, 11:09
for those that will have been watching, I can see the Hartpury TH slipping his long bind from the shirt, on the "crouch", to the armpit once engaged. This surely can't be legal? It is thus forcing the Bristol player to turn in and allowing the Hartpury TH to stand up thereby winning multiple penalties and a subsequent YC for the Bristol LH.

I don't understand how binding on the armpit part of the shirt would "force" the LH to turn in?
It could exert a downward pressure which might cause him to fold under or go down, but not Turn IN?

Were there Appointed AR's at this game (I assume there were), so there would have been someone looking at the other side to the ref.

didds
04-09-17, 11:09
I don't understand how binding on the armpit part of the shirt would "force" the LH to turn in?
It could exert a downward pressure which might cause him to fold under or go down, but not Turn IN?



I obviously haven;t see this, but what COULD be happening is armpit bind allows the binder to create a "V" with his upper and lower arm which can be used as a lever against the other prop. ie the elbow is turned in towards the tunnel, twisting the other prop. That's only a "maybe".

didds

ChuckieB
04-09-17, 13:09
I obviously haven;t see this, but what COULD be happening is armpit bind allows the binder to create a "V" with his upper and lower arm which can be used as a lever against the other prop. ie the elbow is turned55 in towards the tunnel, twisting the other prop. That's only a "maybe".

didds

The LH (Rupert Harden) grabbing the armpit and actually lifting, so more an inverted V and probably driving upwards.

The penalties were given against 3 LHs; the original who then went off with a head knock, the replacement who then got the YC as soon as he came on under the cumulative warnings when and then the "suitably qualified" replacement when the next scrum was awarded. They can't all have been that poor.

In fairness the ref may have been relying on the AR for some feedback. The scrums in question were all pretty much mostly within 15m of touch with him choosing to remain infield on the side of the put in.

Ian_Cook
04-09-17, 14:09
I obviously haven;t see this, but what COULD be happening is armpit bind allows the binder to create a "V" with his upper and lower arm which can be used as a lever against the other prop. ie the elbow is turned in towards the tunnel, twisting the other prop. That's only a "maybe".

didds

To me, this sounds like the only way a bind on the armpit by the TH could be used to turn in.

I have banged this particular drum many times before (both here and on other forums when I have been asked about scrummaging)... a bent arm is much, much stronger than a straight one (try banging a nail in with a straight arm).

By binding on the armpit, the THP is able to form a "V" as you say, and bring his biceps, triceps and deltoids into play to turn his opponent inwards. The THP will pull the LHP's armpit down, forward, and toward him (inwards), then once he has got the LHP's outside shoulder compromised, he will finish the job by pushing his shoulder inwards.

If the bind arm is kept straight, then only the deltoid (the weakest of the three) can be used to turn (very much more difficult). The biceps can then only be used to bend the arm from straight, and that will pull the LHP towards him, helping to lock the scrum and keep it up and stable.

In short... don't let the props shorten their binds... if you do, you are enabling their malarkey potentially creating trouble for yourself.

ChrisR
04-09-17, 14:09
If the TH is getting popped out it's most likely the LH getting his head in the TH's chest and driving up. If that's the case then binding won't be much of a factor.

If the TH has a short bind (armpit) he won't have much leverage to pull the LH around and in but he can push the LH's elbow/arm down and that can get the LH angled in but he then won't be in a good posture to drive up.

What's interesting to me is that the TH wasn't pinged for 'standing up' (a pet peeve of mine).

Ian_Cook
04-09-17, 14:09
The LH (Rupert Harden) grabbing the armpit and actually lifting, .

Was Harden playing at LHP? He's usually listed as No. 3... that's THP. I'm pretty sure Dan Murphy plays LHP for Hartpury.

Did I misunderstand your OP?

ChuckieB
04-09-17, 14:09
To me, this sounds like the only way a bind on the armpit by the TH could be used to turn in.

I have banged this particular drum many times before (both here and on other forums when I have been asked about scrummaging)... a bent arm is much, much stronger than a straight one (try banging a nail in with a straight arm).

By binding on the armpit, the THP is able to form a "V" as you say, and bring his biceps, triceps and deltoids into play to turn his opponent inwards. The THP will pull the LHP's armpit down, forward, and toward him (inwards), then once he has got the LHP's outside shoulder compromised, he will finish the job by pushing his shoulder inwards.

If the bind arm is kept straight, then only the deltoid (the weakest of the three) can be used to turn (very much more difficult). The biceps can then only be used to bend the arm from straight, and that will pull the LHP towards him, helping to lock the scrum and keep it up and stable.

In short... don't let the props shorten their binds... if you do, you are enabling their malarkey potentially creating trouble for yourself.

One of the selective points I am looking to cover in the pre match briefing. Something to put them on notice that I know what I am looking at. Long binds with no slippage.

ChuckieB
04-09-17, 14:09
Was Harden playing at LHP? He's usually listed as No. 3... that's THP. I'm pretty sure Dan Murphy plays LHP for Hartpury.

Did I misunderstand your OP?

No. You are right, I reversed them incorrectly. Aplogies. I am still shouting at the TV because it was so bad and we had no commentators that were conversant (nothing new there!) with Harden's TH tactics.

Ian_Cook
04-09-17, 14:09
If the TH has a short bind (armpit) he won't have much leverage to pull the LH around and in

Ooh I disagree with that. The THP is supposed to bind on the LHP with his right arm outside the left arm of his opponent. He is positioned to the left (inside) of his opponent, so if the referee allows him to short bind on the LHP's armpit, it means the LHP's arm won't be in the way, and he can form the "V" didds talked about and point his elbow down. Because he is positioned inside the LHP, any action by the THP pulling down on the LHP's armpit will also pull him inwards.

ChuckieB
04-09-17, 14:09
Ooh I disagree with that. The THP is supposed to bind on the LHP with his right arm outside the left arm of his opponent. He is positioned to the left (inside) of his opponent, so if the referee allows him to short bind on the LHP's armpit, it means the LHP's arm won be in his way, and he can form the "V" didds talked about and point his elbow down. Because he is positioned inside the LHP, any action by the THP pulling down on the LHP's armpit will also pull him inwards.

Here he was actually grabbing onto the armpit rather than the shirt and looked to keep his elbow above the shoulders which is why it looked so odd.

Ian_Cook
04-09-17, 14:09
Here he was actually grabbing onto the armpit rather than the shirt and looked to keep his elbow above the shoulders which is why it looked so odd.

What, so his forearm and upper arm were about parallel to the ground and he was "pushing" his opponent inwards? If so, he must have a right arm the size of George Foreman's chest!!

ChuckieB
04-09-17, 15:09
For those that can get access:


http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/11020071/highlights-bristol-v-hartpury-college


Harding slips his bind in the first seconds of footage, arm out (setting the scene for what comes later when they are on the attack) and then the YC offence about 1 minute in.

Phil E
04-09-17, 15:09
For those that can get access:


http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/11020071/highlights-bristol-v-hartpury-college


Harding slips his bind in the first seconds of footage, arm out (setting the scene for what comes later when they are on the attack) and then the YC offence about 1 minute in.

At the 1 minute scrum in that video the LHP is bound onto the flanker!

ChuckieB
04-09-17, 15:09
At the 1 minute scrum in that video the LHP is bound onto the flanker!

Not clear on this but I think he is in the last throws of losing grip of hardens shirt and then his arm slips across the top of the flanker as it all goes inwards and upwards.

didds
04-09-17, 16:09
For those that can get access:


http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/11020071/highlights-bristol-v-hartpury-college


Harding slips his bind in the first seconds of footage, arm out (setting the scene for what comes later when they are on the attack) and then the YC offence about 1 minute in.

cheers for that. 1st one - no impact on whatever was going on
2nd one - TBH I couldn;t see enough to work out wtf was happening

didds

Paule23
07-09-17, 03:09
If the TH is getting popped out it's most likely the LH getting his head in the TH's chest and driving up. If that's the case then binding won't be much of a factor.

If the TH has a short bind (armpit) he won't have much leverage to pull the LH around and in but he can push the LH's elbow/arm down and that can get the LH angled in but he then won't be in a good posture to drive up.

What's interesting to me is that the TH wasn't pinged for 'standing up' (a pet peeve of mine).

Standing up is not in itself an offence. What would you ping the TH for?

Ian_Cook
07-09-17, 03:09
Standing up is not in itself an offence. What would you ping the TH for?

20.2 FRONT-ROW PLAYERS’ POSITIONS
(a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each
front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
Sanction: Free Kick

20.3 BINDING IN THE SCRUM
(a) Binding by all front row players. All front row players must bind firmly and continuously
from the start to the finish of the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head
prop by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop.
The tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the
back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the
opposition loose head prop. The tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Take your pick.

didds
07-09-17, 09:09
Standing up is not in itself an offence. What would you ping the TH for?


This was debated at length quite recently. The usual stand offs and angel dancing occurred :)

didds

Paule23
07-09-17, 18:09
20.2 FRONT-ROW PLAYERS’ POSITIONS
(a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each
front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
Sanction: Free Kick

20.3 BINDING IN THE SCRUM
(a) Binding by all front row players. All front row players must bind firmly and continuously
from the start to the finish of the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head
prop by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop.
The tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the
back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the
opposition loose head prop. The tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Take your pick.

Hmm, none of those specifically penalise/prevent standing up. As a stickler for the laws as they are written Ian I'm surprised at you.

OB..
07-09-17, 19:09
This was debated at length quite recently. The usual stand offs and angel dancing occurred :)

didds


Hmm, none of those specifically penalise/prevent standing up. As a stickler for the laws as they are written Ian I'm surprised at you.
I think didds already answered the point.

Ian_Cook
07-09-17, 21:09
Hmm, none of those specifically penalise/prevent standing up. As a stickler for the laws as they are written Ian I'm surprised at you.

Firstly, I'm not a "stickler for the Laws" as they are written, I'm a stickler for consistent Law interpretations between referees and following the interpretations of senior referees. When your REO or MO tells you that players "off their feet are out of the game" then that is a fact and you had better apply it!

Secondly, a player who stands up must infringe at least one of those Laws.

Referees regularly PK players at the breakdown for "taking up the space". You won't find "taking up the space" in the Law book but everyone knows what is meant by it. Similarly, "side entry", "through the gate", "tackle assist", "clean out", "breakdown" and "counter-ruck" are all further examples of terms we know and understand, but that you won't find in the Laws of the Game.

SimonSmith
08-09-17, 01:09
This has been done to death.

if you want to continue this particular point can you take it back to the original thread on the subject?

Please. In the name of love. Please