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didds
09-09-17, 17:09
I am hopefully assisting with our U14s this season so i just had a quick look at the RFU u14 regs

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/01/35/RFURegulation15Appendix8.2016-2017_English.pdf

I actually think the following cannot mean what they seem to be saying?

RFU U14 reg 1. General:
a) The object of the game is to score a try by placing the ball with a
downward pressure on or behind the opponents’ goal line.


downward pressure when carrying it included in that then... ??!!

RFU U14 reg. 6. Penalties:
a) Following the below offences, a penalty will be awarded to the nonoffending
team:
...
iv. When a player prevents an opponent from passing the
ball immediately after a tackle.

So a jackler with hands on the ball is PK'd because the tackled player who hasn't yet released may yet pass the ball?

ah... but....

RFU U14 Reg 8.
l) When the tackle is made and the ball carrier is on the ground,
supporting players may:
i. rip the ball from the ball carrier;

Ah - so 6.a.iv isn't actually real then? WTF is 6.a.iv about then? (ISTR this is actually replicated min the full laws?!)




RFU U14 Reg 9 Kicking
e) After a try is scored, the scorers attempt to score a goal by taking
a kick at goal; this also applies to a penalty try.

errr... new trials? yes? no?

10. Actions Inside the 22 Metre Line (the “22”):
a) If the ball is kicked from within the 22 by the defending team and
goes directly into touch, a lineout will be awarded to the non-kicking
team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline

I have absolutely no idea what on earth "10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline" means - this is a LINEOUT?


I am sure these are oversights/mistakes rather that "real"

Finally

RFU U14 Reg 8. The Tackle, Maul and Ruck:
a) .... Where the ball carrier is taken to ground, the referee will call “Tackle-Release”.

I'll be listening ;-)

And I appreciate may here won;t be in RFUland anyway, and/or dont; often if at all referee U14s!

didds

ChuckieB
09-09-17, 19:09
I am hopefully assisting with our U14s this season so i just had a quick look at the RFU u14 regs

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/01/35/RFURegulation15Appendix8.2016-2017_English.pdf

I actually think the following cannot mean what they seem to be saying?

RFU U14 reg 1. General:
a) The object of the game is to score a try by placing the ball with a
downward pressure on or behind the opponents’ goal line.


downward pressure when carrying it included in that then... ??!!

RFU U14 reg. 6. Penalties:
a) Following the below offences, a penalty will be awarded to the nonoffending
team:
...
iv. When a player prevents an opponent from passing the
ball immediately after a tackle.

So a jackler with hands on the ball is PK'd because the tackled player who hasn't yet released may yet pass the ball?

ah... but....

RFU U14 Reg 8.
l) When the tackle is made and the ball carrier is on the ground,
supporting players may:
i. rip the ball from the ball carrier;

Ah - so 6.a.iv isn't actually real then? WTF is 6.a.iv about then? (ISTR this is actually replicated min the full laws?!)




RFU U14 Reg 9 Kicking
e) After a try is scored, the scorers attempt to score a goal by taking
a kick at goal; this also applies to a penalty try.

errr... new trials? yes? no?

10. Actions Inside the 22 Metre Line (the “22”):
a) If the ball is kicked from within the 22 by the defending team and
goes directly into touch, a lineout will be awarded to the non-kicking
team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline

I have absolutely no idea what on earth "10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline" means - this is a LINEOUT?


I am sure these are oversights/mistakes rather that "real"

Finally

RFU U14 Reg 8. The Tackle, Maul and Ruck:
a) .... Where the ball carrier is taken to ground, the referee will call “Tackle-Release”.

I'll be listening ;-)

And I appreciate may here won;t be in RFUland anyway, and/or dont; often if at all referee U14s!
S
didds

don't quote me, but I think it is a typo. My recollection is that at the lower age groups restarts are mostly about free passes.

so for kicks that end up going directly into touch:

if it is taken backin it is a free pass 10m in from where it was kicked;
if it is from within, gain in ground is allowed, and it is a free pass from 10m from where the ball went out.

lineouts occur for ball going indirectly into touch only.

you are a brave man taking on something below u 15's. It's a nightmare of variations!

didds
09-09-17, 19:09
ah - that makes sense ChuckieB...

although the bloody reg does say

"a lineout will be awarded to the non-kicking team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline"

i can see that yes maybe that shoud be

"a free pass will be awarded to the non-kicking team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline"

cheers

didds

Pegleg
10-09-17, 12:09
I did an age grade event in England last year and had a long discussion with the torganiser over the nonsense that were the variations. As you have highlighted they are full of contradictions. It is up to the poor referee and coaches to try and make sense of them.

The guy who writes them failed the interview for writing WR's law book.

OB..
10-09-17, 13:09
RFU U14 reg. 6. Penalties:
a) Following the below offences, a penalty will be awarded to the nonoffending
team:
...
iv. When a player prevents an opponent from passing the
ball immediately after a tackle.

So a jackler with hands on the ball is PK'd because the tackled player who hasn't yet released may yet pass the ball?

ah... but....

RFU U14 Reg 8.
l) When the tackle is made and the ball carrier is on the ground,
supporting players may:
i. rip the ball from the ball carrier;

Ah - so 6.a.iv isn't actually real then? WTF is 6.a.iv about then? (ISTR this is actually replicated min the full laws?!)
Yes, it is from the full laws. My view has always been that it can be legal to play the ball, even if it prevents the tackled player from passing it, but it is illegal to play the man.

didds
10-09-17, 14:09
Well today's game went well. Very pleased with our lads, and udos to the oppo for coming out a converted try ahead.

main points if I was a ref coach would be

* blue TH prop boring all first half. Probably all game but 2nd half I couldn't see his side. I suspect not deliberately, but he lost his arse all the time

* when one side went down to a 7 man scrum (injuries and low numbers) there was no insistence on equaling scrum numbers, nor usign the WR U19 laws for scrum formations

* as per U14 regs there is no option at a line out squint throw.

Question for you guys from me as a coach noticing the above - when is it appropriate to point each of those "errors" ? I'm not one for shouting out at refs during the game. U14 doesn't permit coaches on the pitch (quite rightly IMO) so no opportunity for a wuiet word in an ear during the game. Half time? Full time? Full time in the bar? never?

I wouldn't want to appear a smartarse, and nobody seemed in any danger overall. It just doesn;t help players develop/next week's ref etc.

From our coaching perspective - pleased. captain/pack leader needs quicker decsion making as to what to do at lineout time, and some direction/help towards lineout defense maybe (uncontested at U14 here).

didds


cheers

didds

Nigib
10-09-17, 14:09
Well today's game went well. Very pleased with our lads, and udos to the oppo for coming out a converted try ahead.

main points if I was a ref coach would be

* blue TH prop boring all first half. Probably all game but 2nd half I couldn't see his side. I suspect not deliberately, but he lost his arse all the time

* when one side went down to a 7 man scrum (injuries and low numbers) there was no insistence on equaling scrum numbers, nor usign the WR U19 laws for scrum formations

* as per U14 regs there is no option at a line out squint throw.

Question for you guys from me as a coach noticing the above - when is it appropriate to point each of those "errors" ? I'm not one for shouting out at refs during the game. U14 doesn't permit coaches on the pitch (quite rightly IMO) so no opportunity for a wuiet word in an ear during the game. Half time? Full time? Full time in the bar? never?

I wouldn't want to appear a smartarse, and nobody seemed in any danger overall. It just doesn;t help players develop/next week's ref etc.

From our coaching perspective - pleased. captain/pack leader needs quicker decsion making as to what to do at lineout time, and some direction/help towards lineout defense maybe (uncontested at U14 here).

didds


cheers

didds

Who was refereeing? How were they qualified? Lack of law knowledge (that I perceived in refs at the age group) was one thing that spurred me on to ref when I was coaching juniors so many years ago.

Two approaches to ensuring all goes as well as you expect:
1. Before the game, talk to the referee and just check that he is aware of all the variations that apply at your level (eg scrum numbers). Also check that he is ok for you to intervene if you feel there is a safety issue. Safety must be paramount in junior games. This then gives you a rationale to speak to him at some point regarding boring in - start with the ' we agreed beforehand I should talk to you about safety...' then lead into your concern.
2. After the game, find the ref and say you have a few queries about the game (or clarifications, whatever terms you use) and then discuss your concerns.

Most refs (me included) are fine with a discussion provided it doesn't become heated or accusatory. So, "why did you do x.../it wasn't clear to me why you gave y.../wasn't sure you saw..." rather than "you were wrong to do x...". In the end, Law 6(a)4(a) trumps everything.

If it's really abysmal refereeing in your view then make sure you have facts and report to the appointing authority. If it's the club it probably won't be worth it (unless it's yours :-) ).

didds
10-09-17, 16:09
Think he was a home club appointed ref (we were away) - but he had society kit on. He kept the game flowing well to his huge credit, though that's equally credit to both teams that wanted to run with the ball.

didds

didds
10-09-17, 16:09
And some good advice there Nigib - cheers

didds

crossref
10-09-17, 17:09
When I was managing a youth team I would always introduce myself to the ref before hand and ask him if he would like me to run through the age group laws and competition specific regulations . Especially if they were society refs.
Most of them would gratefully say yes (I would !) and that makes a lot of difference
1 fewer errors
2 having established a helpful relationship beforehand it's much easier later to bring up any concerns.

- - - Updated - - -

When I was managing a youth team I would always try and introduce myself to the ref before hand and ask him if he would like me to run through the age group laws and competition specific regulations . Especially if they were society refs.
Most of them would gratefully say yes (I would !) and that makes a lot of difference
1 fewer errors
2 having established a helpful relationship beforehand it's much easier later to bring up any concerns.

ChuckieB
10-09-17, 17:09
Didds, it's just week 2 of the season and a serious step up for these lads. It will be an issue of both skills and understanding with the coaches setting the overall tone. I would expect a senior coach to adapt his approach to fit the age group. The lads are generally pretty "vacant" when it comes to listening and learning and the process can be slow for the next couple of years! From experience, my son who is now U16's, is channeling all his energy into growing rather than thinking and paying attention.

In the same way, A decent ref should adapt his approach and bring an appropriate mindset to his officiating and an understanding of the variations is always a helpful start. These guys are often equally out of their comfort zone, especially if thrust into the age grade arena from officiating at adult level. As much of the competition aspect has been removed for all the lower age groups, there should be so much more scope for a learning environment with more input from the ref being deemed acceptable.

Good luck!

didds
10-09-17, 17:09
i get all of that. TBH the quite esoteric U14 squint throw law is not a problem, whatever.

I would hope an assessor might question him about U19 scrum regs and TH boring if it happened in a appointed and assessed game. And WADR a society ref should know the U19 scrum regs wrt lower numbers. That must be covered in ELRA. Overall he was fine and nothing was dangerous.


The players at U14 are one step up from herding chickens still - that's my (and others') job to help them with totally :-) I'm really looking froward to the season.

didds

Pegleg
10-09-17, 17:09
When I was managing a youth team I would always introduce myself to the ref before hand and ask him if he would like me to run through the age group laws and competition specific regulations . Especially if they were society refs.
Most of them would gratefully say yes (I would !) and that makes a lot of difference
1 fewer errors
2 having established a helpful relationship beforehand it's much easier later to bring up any concerns.



As a ref who now rarely does age groups my policy is this in reverse. I ask the coaches of both sides if I can run my understanding of the variations by them. I then get them to agree with my interpretation with any slight corrections. I apologise in advance if I slip into "seniors" mode. Depending on the age of the players I tell them that I'll try to remember the "special" laws but if I forget can you politely let me know at the next Scrum / line-out. Very occasionally I then get a "Sir at the last scrum you allowed X". A quick "thanks, sorry! Or it maybe I didn't see that but thank you" and I find by getting them to feel they are "helping" me, keeps them "on-side".

ChuckieB
10-09-17, 17:09
i get all of that. TBH the quite esoteric U14 squint throw law is not a problem, whatever.

I would hope an assessor might question him about U19 scrum regs and TH boring if it happened in a appointed and assessed game. And WADR a society ref should know the U19 scrum regs wrt lower numbers. That must be covered in ELRA. Overall he was fine and nothing was dangerous.


The players at U14 are one step up from herding chickens still - that's my (and others') job to help them with totally :-) I'm really looking froward to the season.

didds

assessments, on officiating at these levels? A rarity to get a society Ref even!

didds
10-09-17, 18:09
assessments, on officiating at these levels? A rarity to get a society Ref even!

as I said I suspect he was a club appointment, but he was wearing society kit, so i presume at some time he'll do a game where he is assessed. I can see that may not be any U19 game - but I can;t see he'd permit TH boring at any senior levcel surely? It was very obvious (and also undoubtedly not deliberate - he just lost his arse sideways all the time)

I dind;t mean to imply he would be assessed at an U14 game :)

didds

chbg
10-09-17, 18:09
At a recent U15s tournament, one coach come up to me after all the matches and, after thanks, asked if the not-straight line Variation had changed for this season, as it used to be a throw to the other side, no scrum option. I thanked him for pointing out my error (he was the only one of 8 or 9 throughout the day to do so, and I needed the lesson for future school cup matches) and it was all taken and given in good humour. The normal response "at least I was consistent" is usually accepted!

You shouldn't do anything during the game, unless it is a obvious and realistic safety issue, in which case a 'please could we ...' do it in accordance with the Age Group Regulations (with a copy to hand) is probably the best approach - when it is so serious that you will take your team off the pitch if it does not change, with a 'I'm sorry, I cannot allow them to play'. Of course you have to be right, as this is a fairly nuclear option!

After the match is won or lost, and giving the referee time to recover / gather his thoughts (but at this age group match he is probably not re-appearing after a shower), an introductory 'thanks' (do you have a bag of toffees in your pocket to offer him one?) plus some complimentary comments about the match can lead into your main points. The more important and simpler to broach factual issue would be the un-matched numbers in the scrum. If he is receptive to this, then "can I ask about two other points" so that he knows how limited the conversation will be. The more difficult point will be the TH boring in, which is more based on viewpoint / discussion rather than fact, so I would leave it to last. If he is not receptive to a factual error, then he is not going to engage in a discussion on perspective.

I would never raise a point on e.g. post-tackle / rucks as these are situations that are so dependent on his subjective perspective / experience. That has to be left to a trained referee adviser.

OB..
10-09-17, 18:09
assessments, on officiating at these levels? A rarity to get a society Ref even!I was assessing a referee at a U16 schools match yesterday. Unfortunately as soon as he blew his whistle for the kick-off, there was a giant flash of lightning followed immediately by a crash of thunder, so he took everybody off for safety reasons.

25 minutes later it was still bad so the game was abandoned.

ChuckieB
10-09-17, 18:09
I was assessing a referee at a U16 schools match yesterday. Unfortunately as soon as he blew his whistle for the kick-off, there was a giant flash of lightning followed immediately by a crash of thunder, so he took everybody off for safety reasons.

25 minutes later it was still bad so the game was abandoned.

.........and how did you assess the one decision he did make? It was a hugely important one!

SimonSmith
10-09-17, 18:09
.........and how did you assess the one decision he did make? It was a hugely important one!

No kidding. I was standing next to an assessor when a referee got knocked out by the restart. "Best bloody thing he's done all game" was the pithy comment.

ChuckieB
10-09-17, 18:09
No kidding. I was standing next to an assessor when a referee got knocked out by the restart. "Best bloody thing he's done all game" was the pithy comment.

"Positioning" being a priority area of improvement me thinks?

crossref
10-09-17, 20:09
as I said I suspect he was a club appointment, but he was wearing society kit, so i presume at some time he'll do a game where he is assessed. I can see that may not be any U19 game - but I can;t see he'd permit TH boring at any senior levcel surely? It was very obvious (and also undoubtedly not deliberate - he just lost his arse sideways all the time)

I dind;t mean to imply he would be assessed at an U14 game :)

didds

you're not supposed to wear society kit if it's not a society appointment ... so maybe it was.

Pegleg
10-09-17, 20:09
you're not supposed to wear society kit if it's not a society appointment.

Interesting. Why is that? We don't have a similar policy here.

crossref
10-09-17, 21:09
Interesting. Why is that? We don't have a similar policy here.

Are you sure ?

By appointing a ref the Society is endorsing the ref , and saying this ref has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game .

If you have got that , then get yourself appointed. If you haven't then don't wear the kit (or don't do the game)

OB..
10-09-17, 21:09
.........and how did you assess the one decision he did make? It was a hugely important one!
100% correct. There were other games on as well, and they followed suit.

Nigib
10-09-17, 21:09
Are you sure ?

By appointing a ref the Society is endorsing the ref , and saying this ref has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game .

If you have got that , then get yourself appointed. If you haven't then don't wear the kit (or don't do the game)

Yes, this, but also if you've been appointed by your Society then you have their insurance behind you. Wearing Society kit without at least telling a Committee member could put you in a difficult position legally if anything untoward occurs.

Pegleg
11-09-17, 00:09
Are you sure ?

By appointing a ref the Society is endorsing the ref , and saying this ref has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game .

If you have got that , then get yourself appointed. If you haven't then don't wear the kit (or don't do the game)

Yes I am sure! Our societies only appoint from Youth up. Below that you only need to hold the require license for the level of the game. No one can ref any game in Wales unless they hold a WRU (or above) license but games ar not appointe below youth level. In fact if a club asked for a referee to be apointed they would be told to arrangre one themselves, subject to the ref having a license for the level of game they were asked to do. Clubs cannot appoint a ref unless he has a license.

If I am a society ref I will hold a license of at, at least L1 which means I can referee any rugby up to U16. If I hold a L2 I can referee up to NON welsh league stuff above that we have L3 which takes us up to the semi pro Welsh leagues. All L£ can go as low as they wish s can L2s. Any society referee will "has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game".

Strangly enough I do know how our system works.

Pegleg
11-09-17, 00:09
Yes, this, but also if you've been appointed by your Society then you have their insurance behind you. Wearing Society kit without at least telling a Committee member could put you in a difficult position legally if anything untoward occurs.

In England that may be the case. But, we have a different system. Is is done by license. Below Society appointment level (Youth), clubs appoint a ref with the required license ( ([MINIMUM] Tag license for TAG games and L1 from U9- U16) which acts as the insurance certificate. From youth upwards even with a license I can't referee any game unless appointed. EVen Nigel Owens can't rock up and referee Upper cwmbyyer 2nds V Aberflyarff 2nds unless he get the go ahead form the appontment officer. But I can rock up to the local park on a sunday with my license and ref any game I'm asked up to U16 (as can Nige).

To be a society ref you must hold a license. I guess this is not the case in England (judging from your and Crossrefs replies)

My question was aiming to explore the difference in the two systems.

crossref
11-09-17, 07:09
Yes I am sure! Our societies only appoint from Youth up. Below that you only need to hold the require license for the level of the game. No one can ref any game in Wales unless they hold a WRU (or above) license but games ar not appointe below youth level. In fact if a club asked for a referee to be apointed they would be told to arrangre one themselves, subject to the ref having a license for the level of game they were asked to do. Clubs cannot appoint a ref unless he has a license.

If I am a society ref I will hold a license of at, at least L1 which means I can referee any rugby up to U16. If I hold a L2 I can referee up to NON welsh league stuff above that we have L3 which takes us up to the semi pro Welsh leagues. All L£ can go as low as they wish s can L2s. Any society referee will "has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game".

Strangly enough I do know how our system works.

I don't doubt that all this is correct , but you haven't really addressed the question here .. should you really be wearing a society shirt to ref a game when you have not been appointed by the society

Pegleg
11-09-17, 08:09
Well I gues the first point is we wear WRU shirts. so if you want to be picky you could say it is slightly different. However, We ARE society / WRU referees and we ARE appointed under the system / protocol laid down by the Union / Society. The right to appoint a ref to an age grade game has be delegated to the clubs. Clubs who act a defacto WRU appointment officers.

So why would we not wear the shirt which we have been given by said Union? I actually consider it respecting the players.

crossref
11-09-17, 08:09
Well I gues the first point is we wear WRU shirts. so if you want to be picky you could say it is slightly different. However, We ARE society / WRU referees and we ARE appointed under the system / protocol laid down by the Union / Society. The right to appoint a ref to an age grade game has be delegated to the clubs. Clubs who act a defacto WRU appointment officers.

So why would we not wear the shirt which we have been given by said Union? I actually consider it respecting the players.

yes, if you have been appointed according to the protocol laid down by the WRU, then I completely agree you can wear the WRU shirt.

above we were discussing a situation where someone has NOT been appointed according to the protocol of the Society .. and so in that situation he shouldn't really wear the Society shirt.

Pegleg
11-09-17, 09:09
Hence why I asked "Why is that?" Took a while to get an answer. I know whe all , as unions have different protocols about admin etc. I had hoped to get a answer to make the English system clear to me.

So who covers you for insurance if you are not appointed via the Union and instead are appointed by the clubs. Who decides that you are qualified to ref a game. If I was at your club on Sunday morning and you were looking for a ref. What would it take for me to be "appointed" to the game?

crossref
11-09-17, 09:09
Clubs are allowed to appoint a ref to a game. You would be a club official covered by the clubs and the RFU insurance.

You would be in exactly the same position as the club appointed coaches.

crossref
11-09-17, 09:09
Clubs are allowed to appoint a ref to a game. You would be a club official covered by the clubs and the RFU insurance.

You would be in exactly the same position as the club appointed coaches.

Q if you were at my club on Sunday , in England, and got a game, would you wear your WRU shirt for that (let's assume you had that , and also a plain shirt, both in your bag with you)

Pegleg
11-09-17, 09:09
How do you establish that I am "STE" to do the game? We have our licenses which we sgould allways tyake and show to club officials if requested. I assume that my license has no legal standing in England.

I do know. I guess my first consideration would be colours. I do know that a few yers ago a ref was telling a group of us that he had been invited to take a game in the Bristol area (an end of season senior friendly) and he was told by the WRU that the English side had to ask through the RFU for permission for him to be appointed. However, for festivals at age group level as long as the host club confirmed that the aapropriate cover is in place you could do the game.

Now in every festival I've done in England we have been given a festival shirt so I've never needed to consider the question. That said since I see other RFU refs wearing Their society shirts, I had always assumed that whatever appointment system the RFU use means that the referee's appointment is, by protocol, a RFU (society) sanctioned appointment and therfore wearing a society shirt would be acceptable.

Over the border is different with the WRU not having the right to appoint in RFU land. Therfore, I would not wear a WRU shirt outside their area of control.

crossref
11-09-17, 09:09
How do you establish that I am "STE" to do the game? We have our licenses which we sgould allways tyake and show to club officials if requested. I assume that my license has no legal standing in England.

I would ask you about your experience and qualifications and make a judgement. I wouldn't ask you to referee a L6 1st XV game, because I wouldn't know enough about the WRU system/grades to be able to make a judgement about whether you are qualified. I'd have no problem at all asking you to take on our U16s

although having said that - the scenario is something like :
- you are here to watch your local welsh club who are on tour, and playing my club in a friendly
- the society ref I have arranged pulls a hammie and cannot continue
- there is no one I know on the touchline who can ref
- you say : I am a WRU ref and I am qualified to do the game

After a short conversation, you probably would get the gig.

Would you wear your WRU shirt (let's assume for sake of arguemnt you had a choice of shirts in your bag)

Pegleg
11-09-17, 09:09
As per my last post:

"Over the border is different with the WRU not having the right to appoint in RFU land. Therfore, I would not wear a WRU shirt outside their area of control."

Pegleg
11-09-17, 10:09
This is where I favour our system. We carry said licence. That tells clubs the level were are considered able to ref:

Tag Cert = Tag

Level 1 = ANYTHING up to U16
Level 2 = Anything up to what we used to call "district" games (not Welsh leagues).
Level three = Anything up to Welsh Premiership (with caveats).


Level three is, in practice, subdivided Nigel and I are the same grade (technically) BUT Level three is in itself sub divided and then of course we have panel appointments etc. I am not on the list for Championship nor Welsh prem.


Therefore a club can ,with confidence, appoint anyone carrying a Level one, two or three photo licence to an under 16s game. After that the appointment is made by the WRU appointed appointment officer for the area the game is being played in. So I could not be in the Cardiff Clubhouse and be appointed to their game against Pontypridd on the chairman's whim. Let's say I was there and the referee cried of late. The Club would ring the WRU (late call) number and the WRU referee's department would make the call. So the club's officials could say: " Hi Paul (Adams) Alan has cried off so we have no ref today. However, Pegleg is here will you sanction him doing the game?" Paul would then make the call and he would speak to me and record the appointment officially.

crossref
11-09-17, 10:09
we are agreeing -- if you are properly appointed by a body, then you can wear the shirt. If you are not properly appointed you shouldn't wear the shirt.

in the scenario above -- if a club asked me to ref a game , then if I wanted to wear a society shirt I'd call the society and ask them to put the game on the system and appoint me to it - they'd do that even if it was a game we wouldn't normally appoint to, like u16 -- but of course if the game was above my grade level, then they'd say no.

didds
11-09-17, 10:09
AIUI in reality "anybody" can ref a match in England as long as they have a whistle!

They would be covered by basic RFU insurances.

Many AG games are reffed by a coach with no refereeing training other than watching Wayne Barnes on TV and listening to his dad Stuart commentate. (that's a joke incidentally)

I personally think the WRU coaching courses with reffing sections and set up has great merit.

didds

Pegleg
11-09-17, 11:09
we are agreeing -- if you are properly appointed by a body, then you can wear the shirt. If you are not properly appointed you shouldn't wear the shirt.

in the scenario above -- if a club asked me to ref a game , then if I wanted to wear a society shirt I'd call the society and ask them to put the game on the system and appoint me to it - they'd do that even if it was a game we wouldn't normally appoint to, like u16 -- but of course if the game was above my grade level, then they'd say no.

The difference being A club appointment on a Sunday to a U12 game is A WRU appointment. We have no "unauthorised" appointments.

Keeps it simple.

crossref
11-09-17, 11:09
The difference being A club appointment on a Sunday to a U12 game is A WRU appointment. We have no "unauthorised" appointments.

Keeps it simple.

It's no different here, clubs are authorized to appoint to an u12 games , and the ref could wear his RFU ELRA shirt , showing that he has the qualification.
But shouldnt really wear his Society shirt as he wasn't appointed by them.

didds
11-09-17, 11:09
Our chap was all very matching shirt and socks etc. I assumed it was a society shirt!

didds

Phil E
11-09-17, 18:09
Many AG games are reffed by a coach with no refereeing training other than watching Wayne Barnes on TV and listening to his dad Stuart commentate. (that's a joke incidentally)

Are you sure? What's the punch line?
Incidentally the Stadium Manager at Tigers is called Stuart Barnes!

didds
11-09-17, 18:09
Is it a punch line, or a slap line? generically a strike line?

didds

crossref
11-09-17, 19:09
Many AG games are reffed by a coach with no refereeing training other than watching Wayne Barnes on TV and listening to his dad Stuart commentate. (that's a joke incidentally)


Actually, I don't think that's the case.
When I was club ref coordinator our policy was that all 15-a-side games were reffed by someone who had been on the RFU course --- and that was the same at all the clubs that I ever encountered. This policy was well supported, including by the want-to-be refs. In fact our problem was the reverse: paying for people to go on the course who then never actually went on to ref.

didds
11-09-17, 23:09
I doubt many youth coaches around our neck of the woods have done an ELRA. When I was CCC (twice) we had a very few coaches that did ELRA - and never reffed anybody.

Two coaches that did ELRA and moved to reffing. one that then came back to coaching and refs games still.

And loads that never did ELRA even though the funds were there and we (well, I!) promoted the idea. I never did one cos I never wanted to ref, but wanted to coach. I only toyed with it with a view to understandign "better" - but that's why I am here as much as anything. I DID do a club TJ course because I did TJ.

didds

Pegleg
12-09-17, 08:09
Again here in Wales a Level 1 (referee) course is (or certainly was) part of the coachng requirement. So a basic understanding of the laws are there. Not a bad I dea but it can lead to the "I'm a qualified ref................." comments at times.

Bunniksider
13-09-17, 13:09
I had a question from our U14s coach about their uncontested lineouts. Perhaps other coaches at this level could help. Is the lineout uncontested until it's over under usual laws or is it just the throw and catch that is uncontested and once caught then oppo are permitted to sack receiver etc. How are you playing it?

Phil E
13-09-17, 13:09
I had a question from our U14s coach about their uncontested lineouts. Perhaps other coaches at this level could help. Is the lineout uncontested until it's over under usual laws or is it just the throw and catch that is uncontested and once caught then oppo are permitted to sack receiver etc. How are you playing it?

Its the jump/lift that's uncontested.
Once the ball is secured then its back to contested.

didds
13-09-17, 14:09
That's how we agreed to play it last weekend indeed Phil.

it seemed ridiculous to allow potentially the free throw and catch and then the catcher to be able to run through the oppo lineout without being allowed to be tackled etc.

So agreed - throw and catch is uncontested but once the catcher;s feet are back on the floor (assuming they ever left!) its game on. ISTR at much younger AGs the entire process is uncontested but the ball is supposed to be passed away not mauled/driven

didds

Bunniksider
13-09-17, 14:09
Its the jump/lift that's uncontested.
Once the ball is secured then its back to contested.

That's how it was interpreted for my U15s last year where were had uncontested lifting. However looking at the U14s regs below c and f would imply that the lineout (not the catch) is uncontested until it is over in the usual ways.

15. The Lineout:
a) The lineout will be awarded from the touchline level with where the ball crossed the line, to the opponents of the player who touched the
ball before it went into touch.
b) The ball must be thrown down the middle of the channel. If the throw is not straight, a lineout will be awarded to the opposing team. If this throw is not straight, a scrum will be awarded to the (team originally awarded the line out) on the 15m line.
c) The lineout will be uncontested by up to 13 players from each team
d) No lifting or supporting of any kind is allowed.
e) Players not involved in the lineout must remain 10 metres behind the mark and must do so until invited forward by the referee.
f) The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout or the ball goes beyond the 15m or into the 5m channel.

Phil E
13-09-17, 14:09
Sorry, I was thinking of U15.

Yes 15.c seems to say the whole lineout is uncontested.

didds
13-09-17, 14:09
yes... the "issue" I have with it is that as that means the ball or the player carrying the ball must the lineout ... and for the catcher to take off upfield post catch and land that would (in the limited explanations available) mean presumably the ball has to pass the LoT? So now before the oppo can actually touch him he is probably in line with defenders - and guaranteed at least a big go forward as all those defenders have to get "onside" or come through the gate subsequently. I am not convinced that this is what the law makers intended.

now - we can of course go on about how this isn;t about using the laws to our advantage and that other stuff needs to be utilised (catch and drive, OTT to a backline etc) but lets not be naive enough that nobody wouold ever ever explaoit this potential ... even if only accidentally!

I'm of course happy to follow this exactly to the letter of the law - I am just not convinced it is what is really meant.

I wouldn;t know who to ask specifically.

didds

Phil E
13-09-17, 14:09
I wouldn;t know who to ask specifically.

didds

laws@rfu.com

didds
13-09-17, 14:09
Cheers Phil.

Quick question then to clarify... generally speaking (ie not specifically u14 here) a maul "leaves" the lineout when


- the ball (wherever that may be) crosses the line of touch?
- the hindmost feet of the maul crosses the Line of touch?
- something else?

cheers

didds

didds
13-09-17, 15:09
ah!
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?13458-When-is-line-out-over

dixie: until the rear foot of the ensuing ruck or maul moves beyond the line of touch.

didds

Dickie E
13-09-17, 15:09
I'm of course happy to follow this exactly to the letter of the law - I am just not convinced it is what is really meant.



You'd have to think that is not what is meant. Extreme case is catcher holds the ball and does ... nothing. Stands there while the clock runs down, untouchable by opposition.

ChuckieB
13-09-17, 15:09
I have been through this in the last 2 years with progression at u14, U15 and now U16. It is still supposed to about basic skills building blocks and learning of the rudiments of the game.

My recollection is that uncontested relates to the throw such that the throwing side must be allowed to catch the ball from a legitimate throw. Play will then have to develop as normal, otherwise you don't have the necessary building blocks heading into U15 and beyond.

As such it is about all about the a straight throw, a clean catch (as if!) and then whatever distribution by the catcher through the nominated receiver, the formation of the Ruck or Maul or otherwise.

It all goes pear shaped when the ball does not go to the intended catcher or is dropped. I recall the approach that was commonly adopted was that once the ball went to ground it could be contested as if in open play. Get it right next time rather than start again!

There was always much confusion in the absence of agreement between the coaches and the ref. Just make sure you're all singing off the same hymn sheet on this one and you won't go far wrong.

didds
13-09-17, 15:09
Cheers ChuckieB; Id have to say that that is the most pragmatic way forward.:-) Though I can see the whole point made in #51.


I've emailed laws@rfu.com

didds

ChuckieB
13-09-17, 16:09
Cheers ChuckieB; Id have to say that that is the most pragmatic way forward.:-) Though I can see the whole point made in #51.


I've emailed laws@rfu.com

didds

I will seek out u14's at next training (tonight I think) to see if this is still the right understanding. My sons group were 1 year ahead of all the significant changes (free pass rubbish, reduced pitch size changes etc,) and so we have been quite lucky!

ChuckieB
13-09-17, 17:09
The language in the U15 Variations within the U15-U18 RFU AG regs. remains similar, i.e.:

"6. Law 19 Line-Out:

(a) The lineout will be uncontested.

(b) Lifting and supporting is permitted at this age group, i.e. a player may bind to a jumper until he has returned to the ground."

As such my interpretation should hold. Otherwise there is no clarity of where you ultimately introduce the element of contest once the ball is caught and the player is on the ground.

Christy
13-09-17, 19:09
In southern ireland ,
All youth matches are full laws .
Only exception is u13 to u 15 = there is no lifting in line outs
U 16 onwards you can lift .
All scrums are 1.5 meters push max .

7 subs max ( non rolling ) ( providing meets front row replacement criterea )
U 16 & u 18 were allowed 8 subs last year ( must have full front row cover )

didds
13-09-17, 19:09
Cheers Christy - that is what RFUland was until very very recently - full laws, no lifting, U19 global laws (ie squeezeball, wheeling, scrum push etc)

I have spoken with somebody that was significant within the RFU AG regs team until a couple of years ago. His take is Chuckie's and mine and that's what his squad played/plays.

didds

chbg
13-09-17, 20:09
This RFU FAQ was produced last year for U14 & U15 Lineouts:

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Players/01/32/04/00/160909LineoutFAQ_Neutral.pdf

See the last item.

didds
13-09-17, 21:09
Still doesn't adress the "what happens when the catcher just runs up the pitch" scenario though does it.

when has the player carrying the ball left the lineout if having caught and landed he just hares off up the pitch? And is that what the law makers considered?


Let alone the esoteric and unlikely - but theoretically interesting - point raised by Dicke E.

didds

didds
13-09-17, 21:09
"When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the
players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout
ends."

also means

- static maul shaped thing is set on catcher, ball held by catcher. No one can defend this /touch this as the lineout is not over
- maul shaped thing extends its length by three players. No one can defend/touch this as the lineout is not over
- maul shaped thing moves forward two players length. Final player still has feet behind line of touch. No one can defend/touch this as the lineout is not over
- player with ball at the head is now beyond immediate line of defenders , untouched.
- player with ball detaches from maul like thing and hares off up pitch with oppo forwards all behind him.
- any subsequent tackle and supporter running over ball has now placed all those forwards offside.

Q: Can the defending lineout players ever actually move backwards to face the ball carrying head of the maul like thing? isn;t that leaving the lineout before it is over ie the rear most feet of the maul like thing has not yet crossed the LoT ?


Of course its a daft scenario. And no i won;t be coaching it - but as much frankly because I have no faith that a referee would ever actually understand what was happening (except you guys because I've now told you!).

Extend that mail like thing's length to (say_ five players and the ball carrier could end up significantly upfield before running off. That maul like length could, with the addition of the scrum half - be effectively 9 players long, in a crocodile.

3614


didds

ChuckieB
13-09-17, 21:09
Still doesn't adress the "what happens when the catcher just runs up the pitch" scenario though does it.

when has the player carrying the ball left the lineout if having caught and landed he just hares off up the pitch? And is that what the law makers considered?


Let alone the esoteric and unlikely - but theoretically interesting - point raised by Dicke E.

didds

if he has caught it and his feet are on the ground the ball is deemed live as far as the opposition being permitted to contest. The discussion I had with the u14's coach confirms his understanding is the same and that is how they are coaching it.

ChuckieB
13-09-17, 22:09
This RFU FAQ was produced last year for U14 & U15 Lineouts:

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Players/01/32/04/00/160909LineoutFAQ_Neutral.pdf

See the last item.

this was the document I remember but could not lay my hands on. The interesting difference is the different treatment for a ball caught by the opposition.

didds
13-09-17, 22:09
if he has caught it and his feet are on the ground the ball is deemed live as far as the opposition being permitted to contest. The discussion I had with the u14's coach confirms his understanding is the same and that is how they are coaching it.

I agree with you Chuckie - bit that isn't what is being alluded to in chbg's post just above where the claim is the uncontested part does not end until the lineout is over. And the items listed do not cover the catcher setting off upfield - because he cannot be tackled/stopped until he (carrying the ball) has left the lineout - whatever that may mean in the contex of a lone call carrier running UP the pitch.

didds

ChuckieB
13-09-17, 23:09
I agree with you Chuckie - bit that isn't what is being alluded to in chbg's post just above where the claim is the uncontested part does not end until the lineout is over. And the items listed do not cover the catcher setting off upfield - because he cannot be tackled/stopped until he (carrying the ball) has left the lineout - whatever that may mean in the contex of a lone call carrier running UP the pitch.

didds

Poor wording as usual, this time on the part of the RFU. Age grade rugby regs can be distilled into something much simpler than the rfu pump out. Read them carefully and you will see that they go lengths to repeat stuff that we accept as read but as if we are being told it for the first time! It's a case of, "Hang on, but that's what we've always understood it to be. Why are they repeating it in new language!" It just serves to confuse established coaches but is probably designed to be applied by a different and less knowledgeable audience as often happens in schools who are now finally signed up to AGR in its entirety.

The lineout ends in exactly the same way as for the full laws. That has no relevance to when the ball becomes playable/contestable and so it is an unnecessary repetition and a red herring.

davsas
14-09-17, 13:09
Guys I'm posting this here due to heading ( thought has nothing to do with current conversations). I am a society ref, but I also coach u14,and have done since they were u12, as such I ref home games and some away. As I read it the rfu age grade rules are only those stated, if not stated in these rules you default to world laws?
my question is this. In the under 14 rules it states " The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves thelineout or the ball goes beyond the 15m or into the 5m channel. " what I'm being asked is as it's uncontested can the opposition tackle or go for ball once player has it in their hands.
My understanding of uncontested line out is just the throw is uncontested, you must win the throw,after that point it is the same as a normal line out meaning tackle, maul and so on?

didds
14-09-17, 13:09
which is pretty much what Chuckie and I have pragmatically suggested - yes.

If only on the basis that is we accept "uncontested" remains until the lineout is over you end up possibly in an extreme example Dicke's no movement scenario, and my 9 man crocodile scenario... wierd, and unlikely - but theoretically possible.

didds

ChuckieB
14-09-17, 15:09
which is pretty much what Chuckie and I have pragmatically suggested - yes.

If only on the basis that is we accept "uncontested" remains until the lineout is over you end up possibly in an extreme example Dicke's no movement scenario, and my 9 man crocodile scenario... wierd, and unlikely - but theoretically possible.

didds

We don't actually accept that the uncontested element remains until the lineout is over. We accept that the ball is live as far as the contest in the lineout once the player has caught the ball and his feet are on the ground.

Because of the skill element of the throw, we only accept that the throwing team must win the throw to the extent that it is thrown down the middle straight and the throwing team have first dibbs at catching it cleanly. This is true whether it is the intended recipient or, more often than not one of his team mates, because it is over/under thrown. At the extreme it is missed by all, hits the ground and then all bets are off as we want play to continue.

Note, per the RFU guidance, throws not straight are treated differently between u14 (t/o ball and new lineout) & u15 (potential advantage).

ChuckieB
14-09-17, 15:09
Guys I'm posting this here due to heading ( thought has nothing to do with current conversations). I am a society ref, but I also coach u14,and have done since they were u12, as such I ref home games and some away. As I read it the rfu age grade rules are only those stated, if not stated in these rules you default to world laws?
my question is this. In the under 14 rules it states " The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves thelineout or the ball goes beyond the 15m or into the 5m channel. " what I'm being asked is as it's uncontested can the opposition tackle or go for ball once player has it in their hands.
My understanding of uncontested line out is just the throw is uncontested, you must win the throw,after that point it is the same as a normal line out meaning tackle, maul and so on?

Age grade laws are variations and so do not stand in their own right as I believe it. As I alluded to in another post they are unnecessarily confusing. Probably written by the older cousin of our 12 year old who writes laws for WR? Perhaps I should not be insulting to 12 year olds as we are talking age grade? I do them an injustice!

ChuckieB
14-09-17, 15:09
Helpfully:

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Players/01/32/04/00/160909LineoutFAQ_Neutral.pdf

At u14/u15 both:

"What happens if the ball hits the floor?

The lineout is over. Assuming there has been no foul play and that the ball is thrown straight, possession may be contested if the ball hits the ground."

didds
18-09-17, 13:09
I was discussing my silly #66 idea with one of my fellow U14 coaches yesterday, and he pointed out that we could put 13 players in the lineout, and have a receiver and the thrower.

having thrown and caught, with the "uncontested until the lineout ends" suggestion, we could then form a 15 man crocodile, with the ball at the front, and just walk forward maintaining the crocodile. the lineout has not ended until our last man's feet have passed the LoT. Which for a lineout within 10m (say) of the opposition tryline is an undefendable try scored!

which would of course be blatantly stupid!

didds

ChuckieB
18-09-17, 16:09
I was discussing my silly #66 idea with one of my fellow U14 coaches yesterday, and he pointed out that we could put 13 players in the lineout, and have a receiver and the thrower.

having thrown and caught, with the "uncontested until the lineout ends" suggestion, we could then form a 15 man crocodile, with the ball at the front, and just walk forward maintaining the crocodile. the lineout has not ended until our last man's feet have passed the LoT. Which for a lineout within 10m (say) of the opposition tryline is an undefendable try scored!

which would of course be blatantly stupid!

didds

Is your fellow u14 easily led?

Sorry to remind you. The lineout is uncontested up to the point that the player has caught the ball and is on the ground.

I doubt you would have an obliging opposition who were likely to stand off. But perhaps if the opposition knew it was you, they might be prepared to let you try and they could stand there ****ing themselves laughing!

But on a technical point, as your "maul like thing" is not a maul without engagement, he would be deemed to have left the line lineout once he broke beyond the line of touch, so the rearmost foot would not apply

Let me know if you do try and I'll make the effort to come and watch.

At that age group you might just be best focusing your attention on drilling them to keep their hands out of rucks?

didds
18-09-17, 17:09
Well, as Ive said several times _I_ agree with you. its other(s) here who have claimed that the uncontested lineout remains uncontested until the lineout is over and have then realed off a list of criteria that makes a lineout over . My silly post above is an example of why such an approach cannot possibly work.

I thought that much was clear TBH.

meanwhile in a parallel universe it seems there is no definitive answer available and its a buggers muddle. I've asked alws@rfu.com, but the silence in response is deafening. I wouldn't have a clue if the non maul rear foot thing is correct as nobody else seems to know definitively either. Meanwhile FWIW it strikes me (in a purely theoretical way I hasten to add) that the defenders could never touch this situation IF the rear foot thing is correct - because the lineout isn't over so the uncontested part is not over. And debates about the "Italian lineout tactic" here have concluded (mostly!) that defenders cannot leave the lineout line to any depth!


Rest assured Im not going to waste my time coaching this (or anything else) that is pointless . The above is an illustration that the alternative view to you and I wont; work

didds

didds
18-09-17, 17:09
laws@rfu.com !

ChuckieB
18-09-17, 18:09
Well, as Ive said several times _I_ agree with you. its other(s) here who have claimed that the uncontested lineout remains uncontested until the lineout is over and have then realed off a list of criteria that makes a lineout over . My silly post above is an example of why such an approach cannot possibly work.

I thought that much was clear TBH.

meanwhile in a parallel universe it seems there is no definitive answer available and its a buggers muddle. I've asked alws@rfu.com, but the silence in response is deafening. I wouldn't have a clue if the non maul rear foot thing is correct as nobody else seems to know definitively either. Meanwhile FWIW it strikes me (in a purely theoretical way I hasten to add) that the defenders could never touch this situation IF the rear foot thing is correct - because the lineout isn't over so the uncontested part is not over. And debates about the "Italian lineout tactic" here have concluded (mostly!) that defenders cannot leave the lineout line to any depth!


Rest assured Im not going to waste my time coaching this (or anything else) that is pointless . The above is an illustration that the alternative view to you and I wont; work

didds

The RFU, having changed the ethos which leans further towards the development while lessening the absolute competitive element at these levels, seems to suggest such matters aren't that important.

So long as you, the coaches of the teams you are likely to play against (hopefully evenly matched as regards stage of development) and the referee (more often than not a club qualified ref for friendlies, that's if you don't have a league/pool system) are reasonably agreed on how you want to play it, you can't go far wrong.

didds
18-09-17, 18:09
and again, I don;t have an issue with that.

Of course, one day there will be an impasse...


didds

ChuckieB
18-09-17, 19:09
and again, I don;t have an issue with that.

Of course, one day there will be an impasse...


didds

Only between the coaches, and the coaches set the tone. So long as the ref's consistent, as coaches you can't generally have cause for too much complaint, not at these levels anyways.

Remember, "Its' all about the kids!" :hap:

didds
18-09-17, 22:09
I can't see a ref coming down on the side of one coach - it sets a tone the aggrieved coach will "use" potentially.

I would say the ref has to say - its between you two to work out as long as its not dangerous.

Unless there is a third way of course! then the ref can pi$$ both coaches off! The reality of U14 rugby I suspect is that one of the coaches may be holding the whistle....

didds

Flish
19-09-17, 14:09
I had a U14 game on Sunday, first one at those regs although I had done U15 last season, I read up and drew my own interpretation (that PDF from the RFU really helped, but basically recipients can jump, but no lift, no contest until catcher had landed) and made a point of speaking to both coaches before the game to confirm that their expectations were the same as mine, broadly they were, other than the not straight (laws say throw to other team, then if not straight again then scrum to the original throwers), they had apparently been just letting them have another go. I didn't comment (mentally I thought, no, we'll play it by the book as doing so might rile someone), and as it happened they threw straight enough all game anyway.

I also made a point of explaining my same interpretation of non contested to the players in the brief, but in the form of a question so they had the opportunity to respond, again all were happy and it was consistent. I also made a point of shouting contest at the point they landed so people were completely clear with what I was seeing. YMMV but worked for me, the coaches, and the kids.

crossref
19-09-17, 15:09
The reality of U14 rugby I suspect is that one of the coaches may be holding the whistle....

didds

that very well may be the case, but my experience is that by U14 most head coaches have managed to find someone else to ref -- so it might still be an assistant coach and/or willing dad, but that's a significant improvement on the head coach.

in our part of the world league matches (U13 upwards) were refereed by the home club, but it had to be someone NOT associated with the age group. So we had to all swap around on league days. That was an excellent system as boys got experience different referees, and club refs got to ref different teams.

ChuckieB
19-09-17, 17:09
that very well may be the case, but my experience is that by U14 most head coaches have managed to find someone else to ref -- so it might still be an assistant coach and/or willing dad, but that's a significant improvement on the head coach.

in our part of the world league matches (U13 upwards) were refereed by the home club, but it had to be someone NOT associated with the age group. So we had to all swap around on league days. That was an excellent system as boys got experience different referees, and club refs got to ref different teams.

From our Counties/region League Rules:

Match Officials

6.1 The home team is responsible for supplying a referee for the fixture and paying the referee’s expenses. The referee should be either a current active society referee, and if that is not possible then a qualified referee not attached to the home club, and if that is not possible then a qualified referee not attached to the specific home team (i.e. not a relative or in any way attached to the age group in question.

6.2 If a referee as described in 6.1 is not available then the home team must offer the visiting team the option of providing an alternative qualified referee within a reasonable timescale (at least two full days) in advance. If the visiting team declines the offer then the home team can appoint a qualified referee attached to their team.

didds
25-09-17, 14:09
Aha! I got a email back from laws@rfu.com that confirmed out approach 9shared by ChuckieB)

"When can the non-throwing team contest possession?
The contest for possession can start once the player who catches the ball has safely returned to the ground. The non-throwing team cannot contest possession whilst the ball is in the air."

didds

Pegleg
26-09-17, 13:09
in our part of the world league matches (U13 upwards) were refereed by the home club, but it had to be someone NOT associated with the age group. So we had to all swap around on league days. That was an excellent system as boys got experience different referees, and club refs got to ref different teams.

If only that happened here. Not in league games, as there are no leagues until youth here. But, refs need to be as independent as possible. For credibility, the experience of the players (as you suggest) and indeed the referees themselves.

crossref
26-09-17, 14:09
Yes.
At all levels of rugby it's a key skill to be able to calmly adapt to the ref
If all your home games are reffed by the same person the boys don't learn that skill .. and tend to get upset every away game when they encounter an unfamiliar ref

(Aside we play leagues from u13 up, but the league is only play once - not home and away - and will amount to seven fixtures in a season . So we also play plenty of friendlies. Indeed more friendlies than league games. It's a good system)