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Flish
23-10-17, 16:10
Not looking for a debate, as 99% sure (in RFU land) the answer is no, no cards, but I am looking for a reference to policy, or best practice that I can circulate, but am finding nothing in Reg 15, the NROP for minis, or anything else.

I have found this - http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/2462.php#.We4KlraZObg

Which states, amongst others;


Yellow and Red Cards:
Mini rugby (up to and including U12)
No yellow or red cards in Mini Rugby only compulsory substitutions to ensure same numbers on the pitch at all times.

Which is the basis (as a minis coach) I have always worked to (except that reference is of course IRFU) as has every other coach, but to the best of my knowledge it's just something that has been passed down over the years - is there any reference anyone can lay their hands on? Closest I have found is within the RFU disciplinary docs which states it's dealt with by the age grade coach at RFU minis level.

TIA

Pegleg
23-10-17, 18:10
At U12 the WRU states:


T "The WRU requires that both teams shall field the same number of players throughout the game, however if a player is sent off that team is disadvantaged.

So for us from 12 and above number stat equal and stay equal if injury occurs BUT not if foul play requires a Sending Off."

Flish
23-10-17, 20:10
All we have in RFU NROP is the specification of number per side, no variations in terms of injury or any other scenario where numbers change.

ChuckieB
23-10-17, 20:10
Check the rfu age grade rules of play for each age grade. Never the easiest page to find.

http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/regulations

First mention of sin bin comes at u13 but only in respect of the time out being 5 minutes.

As there is no longer true competitive element at these levels, even festivals, I would hope he welfare and enjoyment are the focus. If coaches are looking for something more then they should perhaps question their own involvement! Common sense should prevail.

Flish
23-10-17, 23:10
Check the rfu age grade rules of play for each age grade. Never the easiest page to find.

http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/regulations

First mention of sin bin comes at u13 but only in respect of the time out being 5 minutes.

As there is no longer true competitive element at these levels, even festivals, I would hope he welfare and enjoyment are the focus. If coaches are looking for something more then they should perhaps question their own involvement! Common sense should prevail.

Don't disagree in the slightest, and my interpretation has always been that the absence of a reference to sin bin times is indicative of the fact that there are none, coupled with from U13 up it should be a county appointment ideally, so a qualified and accountable official to administer the cards.

However, some people think the lack of a specific instruction means they can do what they like, so looking for specifics!

Pegleg
24-10-17, 08:10
I can buy the case from no YC unless stated. Manage with compulsory sub call. However, if a player at under 10 (for example) unleashed a punch that floored a player are you telling me he should "get away" with it? Tournaments / Festivals usually include a "Red card and you are out of the tournament" rule Ican see an issue with that.

Taking the point: Iif it is not included then you can't use it" Usually age group variations often (normally?) include the "catch all" that WR laws apply UNLESS the variations specify differently. If that is the case then cards apply.

Pegleg
24-10-17, 08:10
Appendix 6 of the RFU rules give an outline of Disciplinary procedure but does not refer to cards. But it clearly considers the possibility of action being taken "post game". If I was in RFU land, I would seek a specific "ruling" from my society / RFU to establish what should be done in the event or a RC or YC situation. Until that was forthcoming I would work on SAFETY being key and that is the safety of the victim and not the agressor.

Flish
24-10-17, 08:10
I can buy the case from no YC unless stated. Manage with compulsory sub call. However, if a player at under 10 (for example) unleashed a punch that floored a player are you telling me he should "get away" with it? Tournaments / Festivals usually include a "Red card and you are out of the tournament" rule Ican see an issue with that.

Also from the link above from Ireland, which is again how it's been played out (only happened once thankfully and opposition coach was all over it, as it should be)

Punching/ kicking of an opponent:
No warning - immediate compulsory substitution and the player is not allowed to participate in next match or rest of the day's event


Taking the point: Iif it is not included then you can't use it" Usually age group variations often (normally?) include the "catch all" that WR laws apply UNLESS the variations specify differently. If that is the case then cards apply.

Ssh, that's the flaw in my thinking!

Flish
24-10-17, 08:10
Appendix 6 of the RFU rules give an outline of Disciplinary procedure but does not refer to cards. But it clearly considers the possibility of action being taken "post game". If I was in RFU land, I would seek a specific "ruling" from my society / RFU to establish what should be done in the event or a RC or YC situation. Until that was forthcoming I would work on SAFETY being key and that is the safety of the victim and not the agressor.

I've already emailed our RDO, answers don't tend to appear rapidly though!

crossref
24-10-17, 09:10
I think cards start when you play the 15 a side game. But I don't know what age that is nowadays

Rich_NL
24-10-17, 09:10
That's certainly the case in Holland. Up to mini age (U12) you talk to the coaches and arrange a substitution. In three years of junior grade matches most weekends, tournaments, regional days, etc, I only had to do that twice.

TigerCraig
24-10-17, 12:10
That's certainly the case in Holland. Up to mini age (U12) you talk to the coaches and arrange a substitution. In three years of junior grade matches most weekends, tournaments, regional days, etc, I only had to do that twice.

Here it starts when formal competition does, at under 10, but yellow cards can be replaced to Under13

Flish
24-10-17, 13:10
I think cards start when you play the 15 a side game. But I don't know what age that is nowadays

15 aside is U14 now within the RFU scope, But the U13 variations do have specific wording for sinbin times (5 minutes) which is the first of the NROP age groups to mention the concept, which fits with my understanding

crossref
24-10-17, 13:10
15 aside is U14 now within the RFU scope, But the U13 variations do have specific wording for sinbin times (5 minutes) which is the first of the NROP age groups to mention the concept, which fits with my understanding

when I was involved in youth rugby cards did indeed start at U13, sounds like that is the same, at least.

didds
25-10-17, 13:10
I asked around and received this (not official etc ) answer..


this used to be in Reg 15 for U7-U12 age grades. Having checked through the current Reg 15 dated 1st August 2017 it appears that when the RFU "professionals" updated the regulations this is one of those sentences that was dropped. We certainly included this type of regulation in all Mini rugby competitions within our area. It is another opportunity for all coaches involved to discuss and agree in advance of the game which is only being played for the benefit of the young players obviously.

So basically the RFU broke the regs. As Pegleg points out the general approach is its WR laws UNLESS the regs change it. So we can take it that in theory cards cold be issued at U7 tag. Whether that is actually appropriate and meaningful and in anybody's best interests at such early AGs.

didds

Pegleg
25-10-17, 16:10
I asked around and received this (not official etc ) answer..



So basically the RFU broke the regs. As Pegleg points out the general approach is its WR laws UNLESS the regs change it. So we can take it that in theory cards cold be issued at U7 tag. Whether that is actually appropriate and meaningful and in anybody's best interests at such early AGs.

didds

One would hope at tag any issues would be more apparent before any flash point. But I remember on tournament from many years ago a game between a club's A & B U7 tag sides. A fair old punch was thrown behind my back seen by my son. He mentioned it at half time. I spoke to the coach and he removed the lad from the game. Aparently there was "history" from school.

Flish
30-11-17, 13:11
Another thread reminded me that I didn't post the reply that came from our local County (it'a disciplinary thing rather than an RFU mandate thing), anyway, answer was;


Yellow cards are not encouraged at Mini level, rather a word to coaches to ask for the player to be subbed.
However, Red cards are a different matter. No hearings take place at Mini/Junior level below U13s, the club is deemed capable of carrying out an internal investigation.
Working on the premise that ‘foul play is foul play regardless of age’, one has to be careful in the delivery of the card. A dangerous tackle or a reckless stamp etc, could warrant a red card in any game but you could be empathetic at the lower age ranges.
Punches, and the similarly offensive strikes, and abuse (especially MOA), a red card should be in the refs mind. I have had a couple of hearings for U13’s for MOA and it is creeping into the game!
As refs and coaches, we try to keep young players on the park, and no ref should ever say ‘you leave me no option’...there’s always an option! Refs should ALWAYS fill in a red card report...even though they may think afterwards that it was too harsh.
That is for the Discipline hearing to decide any sanctions/tariffs that are necessary.

So I would exercise caution in delivering any cards, but there may be overriding circumstances that drive you doing so.

Blackberry
30-11-17, 13:11
What's MOA please?

OB..
30-11-17, 15:11
What's MOA please?My guess: Match Official Abuse.

Flish
30-11-17, 20:11
My guess: Match Official Abuse.

Yup, really hoping it's not as prevalent as that response suggested, certainly not in my experience (so far)

Phil E
01-12-17, 09:12
Yup, really hoping it's not as prevalent as that response suggested, certainly not in my experience (so far)

Caveat: this is just my experience and doesn't apply to all coaches, there are always exceptions.

My experience is that in mini and midi rugby it tends to be the coaches themselves or a dad who referees. They may or may not have done a course, and if they have it might have been quite a long while ago. They also may or may not have been a player of any standard, so sometimes you get the coach living his dream through coaching instead of playing.

The coaches get used to being able to shout what they want, as well as being able to come onto the pitch whenever they want and wander up and down the touch line.

When they get to U14, 15 they continue this behaviour because no one has ever (or rarely) stopped them. They know its wrong but continue to do it because they can. We also have a % of coaches who have the win at all costs mentality, only choose the best players and the not so gifted players can't get a game and leave rugby or move to another club.

When they get to U15 (sometimes) or U16, 17, 18 they suddenly start getting Society referees for some games. They also find themselves being called out on their behaviour and it comes as a big shock to them. Some try to argue their point and end up getting reported. Some realise from their own playing days (if they did play) that they are in the wrong and mend their ways.

As I say this is 'some' coaches and certainly not all. I tend to find that the coaches who do behave like this have ill disciplined players as well because the players take the lead from the coach.

This season I have started refereeing my stepsons U12 team because
1. I enjoy it and
2. the standard of some referees at that age left me frustrated (some are very good and I always make a point of complimenting the ones that are).

On a couple of occasions I have stopped the game to ask a coach to please stop shouting at me, I have asked him to observe the core values of the game and set a good example for his players. Spectators seem shocked that a referee would do this, but usually I get a "about time someone did that" kind of remark.

At U15 and 16 I nearly always have to remind coaches of the core values and also what touchline behaviour I expect from them. Don't charge up and down the touchline shouting at me or the players; don't come onto the pitch at every single opportunity to coach the players.

To their credit coaches usually thank me after the game and accept that their behaviour crossed a line.

So I suppose the point of this post is that coaches get into bad habits (as we all do in life) and don't realise until someone points it out to them. If more referees challenged coaches behaviour (in a polite and positive way), this behaviour would soon go. It does tend to go as they get higher up the age groups, but only because they tend to get more experienced (slower) referees who wont put up with it.

PS: Didds is not included in this :wink:

didds
01-12-17, 10:12
PS: Didds is not included in this :wink:


Ah, shucks ;-)

didds