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TheBFG
04-12-17, 16:12
Schools u18 game.

Boy does a "squeeze ball" :nono: PK!

But sir, i was on my knees, so it's OK :chin:

New one on me, one for the RR.com myths page :wink:

Oh yes and again the (uncontested scrums fav), "sir the no.8 isn't allowed to pick up"!

"Those London refs need to learn their laws" :wink:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
04-12-17, 16:12
But sir, i was on my knees, so it's OK :chin:



As opposed to...?

TheBFG
04-12-17, 16:12
As opposed to...?

led on his stomach? :chin: No idea, didn't discuss it :wink:

SimonSmith
04-12-17, 17:12
Austin Healey:
A tackled player, who is being held on the ground, can't pop the ball up to a support runner. It's an area of law that needs looked at because so many teams are doing it.

Quins -v- Sarries.

didds
04-12-17, 17:12
well, he has sort of a point. Clearly the tackled player can release or pass etc... but some of the time gaps allowed to do so really stretch it somewhat.

didds

Pinky
04-12-17, 19:12
well, he has sort of a point. Clearly the tackled player can release or pass etc... but some of the time gaps allowed to do so really stretch it somewhat.

didds

Yes, but the solution is a defender on his feet to approach to play the ball and the tackled player loses his right to pass and can only then release to the opposition.

ChuckieB
04-12-17, 23:12
Schools u18 game.

Boy does a "squeeze ball" :nono: PK!

But sir, i was on my knees, so it's OK :chin:

New one on me, one for the RR.com myths page :wink:

Oh yes and again the (uncontested scrums fav), "sir the no.8 isn't allowed to pick up"!

"Those London refs need to learn their laws" :wink:

An issue of safety rather than anything else. It's unclear in the age grade variations (rfu land) that it is given anything more than a free kick?

menace
04-12-17, 23:12
Schools u18 game.

Boy does a "squeeze ball" :nono: PK!

But sir, i was on my knees, so it's OK :chin:

New one on me, one for the RR.com myths page :wink:

Oh yes and again the (uncontested scrums fav), "sir the no.8 isn't allowed to pick up"!

"Those London refs need to learn their laws" :wink:
Apologies for the stupid q...but is squeeze ball at below u18 totally outlawed there? Or was it that he just took too long to make the ball available?

Over here thw technique is only outlawed u6 - u12s

ChuckieB
04-12-17, 23:12
Apologies for the stupid q...but is squeeze ball at below u18 totally outlawed there? Or was it that he just took too long to make the ball available?

Over here it's only outlawed u6 - u12s

rfu land age grade variation u13-u18. "No player shall use the technique...."

Pegleg
05-12-17, 21:12
In Wales squeezeball is outlawed up to and including youth.

Dickie E
05-12-17, 21:12
my bugbear is when touring school teams come over here especially from UK. After they have already played 3 or 4 games around the country I ask the touring skipper at pre-match 2 questions to which the answers are invariably "no":

"are you aware that squeezeball is legal here?"
"are you aware of the Mayday protocol?"

SMH

OB..
05-12-17, 22:12
my bugbear is when touring school teams come over here especially from UK. After they have already played 3 or 4 games around the country I ask the touring skipper at pre-match 2 questions to which the answers are invariably "no":

"are you aware that squeezeball is legal here?"
"are you aware of the Mayday protocol?"

SMHIn which case, presumably neither has occurred so far.

Who do you think is at fault, the visitors for not knowing the differences, or the earlier hosts for not explaining them?

Dickie E
05-12-17, 22:12
In which case, presumably neither has occurred so far.


Presumably, yes. If there had been a serious breach (ie an Australian player was now in a wheelchair because the English scrum hadn't known about & complied with Mayday) then it would be all over the media.

I'm also critical of previous Australian referees who hadn't ensured that the visitors were briefed.



Who do you think is at fault, the visitors for not knowing the differences, or the earlier hosts for not explaining them?

Both IMO &, in particular, the previous referee/s.

If I was the visiting coach/teacher in charge I'd ask the local hosts if there were any local requirements that I should be aware of. And if I was the host, I'd inform the visitors, in writing, of any local requirements.

I'd also brief / discuss with the referee on what had been conveyed.

menace
05-12-17, 23:12
But the "mayday" protocol is not something you can turn up on the day and take them through. It has to be taught and practiced/drilled with the scrum pack. The onus really has to be on the host union when the tour is ratified/approved, presumably in writing, that they supply the visitors with details and guidance - surely???

Dickie E
05-12-17, 23:12
But the "mayday" protocol is not something you can turn up on the day and take them through. It has to be taught and practiced/drilled with the scrum pack. The onus really has to be on the host union when the tour is ratified/approved, presumably in writing, that they supply the visitors with details and guidance - surely???

well, ideally, yes.

But what are you going to do on the day when you ask the visitors if they're aware of Mayday and they answer "no"?

I tell them that if they hear a Mayday call, stop pushing, drop to your knees and then I'll tell you what to do next.

OB..
05-12-17, 23:12
Presumably, yes. If there had been a serious breach (ie an Australian player was now in a wheelchair because the English scrum hadn't known about & complied with Mayday) then it would be all over the media.

I'm also critical of previous Australian referees who hadn't ensured that the visitors were briefed.



Both IMO &, in particular, the previous referee/s.

If I was the visiting coach/teacher in charge I'd ask the local hosts if there were any local requirements that I should be aware of. And if I was the host, I'd inform the visitors, in writing, of any local requirements.

I'd also brief / discuss with the referee on what had been conveyed.Agreed, but it is not easy to know what questions to ask. For example do your regulations specifically say "Squeeze ball is allowed" or should the visitors infer it from the lack of any regulation? etc.

I suppose it is down to the various Unions granting permission to tour to keep up to date with regulations at common touring destinations.

TigerCraig
06-12-17, 01:12
well, ideally, yes.

But what are you going to do on the day when you ask the visitors if they're aware of Mayday and they answer "no"?

I tell them that if they hear a Mayday call, stop pushing, drop to your knees and then I'll tell you what to do next.

From memory you refereed Leeds Grammar a week or so before me - they were very well briefed :pepper:

Dickie E
06-12-17, 02:12
"don't waste your breath, ref. The old, bald-headed bloke in Melbourne told us all of this guff last week" :)

menace
06-12-17, 02:12
well, ideally, yes.

But what are you going to do on the day when you ask the visitors if they're aware of Mayday and they answer "no"?

I tell them that if they hear a Mayday call, stop pushing, drop to your knees and then I'll tell you what to do next.
Yes - well ..um er...I have to agree. Even locally new coaches don't teach their team the protocol and you're right I do the same for junior games so that a game can be played.

But the protocol is well documented in ARU materials - it can't be that hard for the unions to have a stand alone version of the protocol document they can provide to the touring side so they can practice it (it's not hard!).

on second thoughts - strike that - we already know the ability of ARU's and unions communications strategy.

(wait till you get the Blue Card stuff for next season! Hopefully they have fixed it up - it was like reading swiss cheese!)

menace
06-12-17, 02:12
Agreed, but it is not easy to know what questions to ask. For example do your regulations specifically say "Squeeze ball is allowed" or should the visitors infer it from the lack of any regulation? etc.

I suppose it is down to the various Unions granting permission to tour to keep up to date with regulations at common touring destinations.

we actually have a good document called "Game management guidelines" and that covers most of the do's and don'ts and outlines how us ozzies are 'supposed' to manage the game! That could be easily provided and although I don't know for sure - i'd like to think it would be provided to Int'l touring sides?

IdrisDragon
30-12-17, 15:12
An issue of safety rather than anything else. It's unclear in the age grade variations (rfu land) that it is given anything more than a free kick?

Agree completely about RFU regulation 15 being unclear on squeezeball.

When I asked for clarification from my society I was emphatically told PK; whenever I have given a PK there has been no quibble from players or coaches.

Blindpugh
01-01-18, 12:01
I found this post by OB in RugbyRefs archives from March 2006 which should help align referees in terms of squeeze ball.

"A bit long, but here is the RFU release, which quotes the relevant IRB Note. You will see it is not an ELV, but a request by the IRB for Unions to take domestic action."

The Elite game, including the England side, has in recent seasons developed a technique which has become known as squeezeball. This technique involves a ball carrier making contact with opponents, going to ground, usually keeping his/her body parallel to the touch line, holding the ball on his/her chest and, when on the floor, protecting and pushing the ball back through his/her legs. This results in ball retention and subsequent presentation for the side in possession.
Younger players are great mimics and will adopt techniques seen applied by adults regardless of their ability to perform them or of potential threats to their personal safety.

The Safety issues for youth players are:
(i) The ball carrier exposing his/her neck to danger from arriving players from either team.
(ii) The ball carrier not moving away/not being able to move away.
(iii) Arriving players:
(a) Being driven to ground by team mates and landing dangerously themselves.
(b) Driving dangerously against/onto the nape of the neck of an opponent trying to pick up the ball.
(c) Driving dangerously onto the player executing the "squeezeball technique".
These are all done in an attempt to retain or regain the ball on the ground.
These techniques often result in players’ shoulders being lower than their hips -"shoulders above hips", is a fundamental criterion for safety throughout all levels of the game (but especially the younger, less physically mature), at scrummage, ruck, maul and tackle.
Coaches are encouraged to educate and coach their players in alternative safe techniques (which are described in the RFU Coaching Handbooks) and explain to them why this advice has been given.
On 8 November 2001, the International Rugby Board (IRB) issued the following Note on Interpretation of Law 15.6 (d) - the Tackled Player:

"Law 15.6(d) states: "A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, providing this is done immediately."
In recent times players having been tackled or who go to ground have done so ensuring that the ball is underneath them, they then push the ball along the ground and through their legs (a practice known as squeeze ball).
On most occasions when players attempt to push the ball along the ground under their bodies they are not making the ball available immediately and they are in contravention of Law 14.1 and Law 15.6 (d). Players who attempt the action are liable to penalty unless the ball is immediately available."
With an emphasis on immediately, Referees have been instructed to enforce the above strictly.

In addition, because of the potential dangers and safety hazard of these techniques, the IRB has requested all Unions to introduce appropriate domestic regulations to make the action, referred to as squeezeball, illegal for all age levels from under 18 downwards.

Accordingly, the RFU Council, in accordance with RFU Rules 4.13 and 12.2, has introduced the following new RFU Regulations to take effect immediately:

YOUNG PLAYERS - Squeezeball

No player involved in a match at any age level from under 18 downwards shall use in training or in a match the technique known or referred to as squeezeball.
No person involved in the teaching or coaching of the game may teach or coach players involved in a match at any age level from under 18 downwards or encourage such players to use the technique known or referred to as squeezeball.

Blindpugh
01-01-18, 13:01
Just checked shortened version of World Rugby Law Book 2018 and it makes no reference to squeeze ball in Under 19 law variations.

crossref
01-01-18, 13:01
Just checked shortened version of World Rugby Law Book 2018 and it makes no reference to squeeze ball in Under 19 law variations.

I don't think it was in the 2017 Law Book either - the RFU banned it in age group rugby in England, it's not a global thing

Blindpugh
01-01-18, 17:01
3676
I don't think it was in the 2017 Law Book either - the RFU banned it in age group rugby in England, it's not a global thing

Dear CrossRef - if IRB Interpretation of the Law 15.6 (d) dated 8 November 2001 is no longer global then please advise when it was withdrawn?

I am now coaching HRURS referees and plan to update the attached matrix to assist them when refereeing the age grades in Hampshire. I started this in 2004 - 05 and found it useful in dealing with coaches (mis) interpretation of the laws and local myths.

It was only updated with an audit trail back to IRB or RFU. Matrix would be checked by Simon Thomas (with very few Hrmpphs) before being uploaded to HRURS website.

Happy New Year btw.

crossref
01-01-18, 17:01
in England it's very clear -- in age group rugby the RFU write the regs - and you can't use squeeze ball

3. Squeezeball:
No player shall use the technique known or referred to as “Squeezeball” and
no person involved in the teaching or coaching of rugby may teach or coach
to encourage the use the “Squeezeball” technique.
Note: “Squeezeball” is a technique where the ball carrier goes to ground,
head forward (touching or close to the ground), irrespective of immediate
contact with opponents, usually keeping parallel to the touchline, holding
and protecting the ball close to the chest and, when on the ground, pushing
the ball back between the legs.

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/72/59/RFURegulation15Appendix9_English.pdf


In the rest of the world I don't really know. I am not familiar with a 2001 interpretation - but I would have thought the 2018 Laws would take precedence. Anyway every union writes its own Regulations and no doubt some ban squeezeball while others don't care

buff
02-01-18, 01:01
Illegal in Canada for U19 since 2009.

http://www.rugbycanada.ca/media/leagues/3817/graphics/SQUEEZE%20BALL.pdf

I don't remember ever seeing this ban removed.

didds
02-01-18, 09:01
Just checked shortened version of World Rugby Law Book 2018 and it makes no reference to squeeze ball in Under 19 law variations.

*groan*

didds

crossref
02-01-18, 10:01
But it wasn't in the 2017 book either ..

L'irlandais
02-01-18, 12:01
In France, no squeeze ball in underage rugby, (categories B,C,D*) up to (and including) U18.
*Underage rugby is divided into categories A, B,C,D based on skill set of players.

U19 squads not competing in Category A will not be allowed used the tactic either.
Also outlawed in Sevens up to U18 in France.

Phil E
02-01-18, 13:01
Just checked shortened version of World Rugby Law Book 2018 and it makes no reference to squeeze ball in Under 19 law variations.

Because its not banned at U19...only at U18 and below.

Camquin
02-01-18, 14:01
it might be sensible to ban it in the U19 variations - but that would be a law change.
Perhaps we should lobby for that for the 2019 law book.

In the RFU regulations it is banned is in the appendices to regulation 15, listed separately for every age grade.

Blindpugh
02-01-18, 19:01
it might be sensible to ban it in the U19 variations - but that would be a law change.
Perhaps we should lobby for that for the 2019 law book.

In the RFU regulations it is banned is in the appendices to regulation 15, listed separately for every age grade.

To ensure that it is refereed consistently it would have been useful if RFU law variation had included Sanction (Penalty) as they have for under 15 - Scrum half offence.

Pinky
02-01-18, 22:01
Just checked shortened version of World Rugby Law Book 2018 and it makes no reference to squeeze ball in Under 19 law variations.

In the IRB circular quoted above by OB, it was clear the IRBintended this to apply at under 18 and younger, so it is no surprise it is not in the under 19 law variations - though perhaps it should be?

TigerCraig
02-01-18, 23:01
Here it is banned to U12

crossref
02-01-18, 23:01
In the IRB circular quoted above by OB, it was clear the IRBintended this to apply at under 18 and younger, so it is no surprise it is not in the under 19 law variations - though perhaps it should be?

I don't think world rugby make law variations for u18 do they ? Isn't that delegated to national unions

TigerCraig
03-01-18, 00:01
I don't think world rugby make law variations for u18 do they ? Isn't that delegated to national unions

I believe so - like crutch binding in scrums, which is banned in Australia (except in some elite competitions) but OK elsewhere; or lifting in lineouts which starts at U13 in Australia (with leg lifting at U16 up) but at different ages elsewhere; or scrum halves trailing which is banned in NZ but OK in Australia ......

Dickie E
03-01-18, 00:01
In the IRB circular quoted above by OB,

I can't see that post. What # post is it please?

Jolly Roger
03-01-18, 00:01
I know that this is banned by SRU at U18 and below but no mention in Age Grade Variations or Guidelines for Refereeeing Domestic Rugby.

Pinky, do you know where this edict is laid down? Nothing on Hive that I can find.

TheBFG
03-01-18, 12:01
I can't see that post. What # post is it please?

#22...

L'irlandais
03-01-18, 12:01
Or try the Archive original (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?802-Squeeze-Ball-in-Youth-Rugby)

Camquin
03-01-18, 17:01
A document listing theage grade variations round the world might be an interesting thing to build on the wiki.

TigerCraig
03-01-18, 22:01
A document listing theage grade variations round the world might be an interesting thing to build on the wiki.

Sydney Juniors are here (for up to and including U12, after that they follow ARU U19): http://www.snrr.org.au/laws-of-the-game

ARU U19 are here: http://www.rugbyaustralia.com.au/Portals/22/2017%20Laws/U19%20Laws%20ARU%202017.pdf

Blindpugh
03-01-18, 22:01
Sydney Juniors are here (for up to and including U12, after that they follow ARU U19): http://www.snrr.org.au/laws-of-the-game

ARU U19 are here: http://www.rugbyaustralia.com.au/Portals/22/2017%20Laws/U19%20Laws%20ARU%202017.pdf

I have carried out a quick scan of threads and links to current under 18 law variations and it would appear that only governing bodies who do not make reference to IRB 2001 request for squeeze ball to be penalised by referee at under 18 and below are Australia and New Zealand http://www.boprugby.co.nz/downloads/DSLV%202017%20v2.pdf

It would be interesting to know if referees in Australia and New Zealand penalise this dangerous technique/ practice or whether it is allowed?

Jolly Roger
03-01-18, 23:01
SRU Age Grade Variations. 2015 is most recent version.

https://www.scottishrugby.org/sites/default/files/editor/images/domestic-rugby/age_grade_law_variations_august_2015_2.pdf

Dickie E
04-01-18, 01:01
It would be interesting to know if referees in Australia and New Zealand penalise this dangerous technique/ practice or whether it is allowed?

I seem to remember that it was outlawed several years ago in Oz but has crept back in. I'm not aware that it is defined as being illegal in any of our documents.

Here's a bit of interesting history:

http://www.rugbycanada.ca/media/leagues/3817/graphics/SQUEEZE%20BALL.pdf

TigerCraig
04-01-18, 02:01
I seem to remember that it was outlawed several years ago in Oz but has crept back in. I'm not aware that it is defined as being illegal in any of our documents.

Here's a bit of interesting history:

http://www.rugbycanada.ca/media/leagues/3817/graphics/SQUEEZE%20BALL.pdf

U12 and below in Sydney at least

Blindpugh
04-01-18, 16:01
I seem to remember that it was outlawed several years ago in Oz but has crept back in. I'm not aware that it is defined as being illegal in any of our documents.

Here's a bit of interesting history:

http://www.rugbycanada.ca/media/leagues/3817/graphics/SQUEEZE%20BALL.pdf

Thanks Dickie it looks as though RugbyCanada needed to remind referees and coaches in 2009 about IRB 2001 law interpretation.

I have noticed it in the Elite game that as a player sees he is isolated and going to be tackled by two players will go to ground and carryout squeeze ball (quickly). They are only penalised if player on his feet manages to get hands on ball before supporting players arrive.

I would bet my bottom dollar that this technique will be coached at Academy level which includes under 18 players. Will ask Hampshire Training Officer to raise at January meeting.

Keep us informed if anything happens in Australia because we often get visiting under 18 school sides.

Dickie E
04-01-18, 22:01
It seems odd that the IRB would issue this statement but then not include it in the global laws:


“Unions are requested to adopt Domestic Variations, which makes the action known as the squeeze ball, illegal for all age levels from under 18 downwards.” (Memo from IRB Interpretation, November 8, 2001).

menace
05-01-18, 07:01
I seem to remember that it was outlawed several years ago in Oz but has crept back in. I'm not aware that it is defined as being illegal in any of our documents.

Here's a bit of interesting history:

http://www.rugbycanada.ca/media/leagues/3817/graphics/SQUEEZE%20BALL.pdf

Certainly only outlawed below u13s..and documented. Also documented positive for u13 and above in our GMGs.
"The tackled player must not position their body (eg. ‘squeeze ball’) to delay the release of the ball when
isolated or under pressure. The ball must be available immediately for play (PK). (Note: this technique is
illegal entirely in Pathway U6-U12)."

Pegleg
05-01-18, 09:01
It seems odd that the IRB would issue this statement but then not include it in the global laws:

Sadly, whilst a daft call , it is not odd for World Rugby given their track record.

Phil E
05-01-18, 10:01
It seems odd that the IRB would issue this statement but then not include it in the global laws:


“Unions are requested to adopt Domestic Variations, which makes the action known as the squeeze ball, illegal for all age levels from under 18 downwards.” (Memo from IRB Interpretation, November 8, 2001).



Presumable because there is no U18 section in the law book to place it in?

crossref
05-01-18, 10:01
Under 18 Variations are delegated to unions aren't they, so under current arrangements WR cannot direct what is in them, only request

Each union should create a pathway programme for youth players. Through this programme,
young players can be gradually introduced to the various phases of rugby at an appropriate
time, offering them more protection from injury. The age and content of this programme
should be determined by each union, depending on the unique characteristics of the playing
environment within that union

Dickie E
05-01-18, 12:01
Under 18 Variations are delegated to unions aren't they, so under current arrangements WR cannot direct what is in them, only request



a coroner would have a field day

crossref
05-01-18, 12:01
A coroner ?

Pegleg
05-01-18, 13:01
Presumable because there is no U18 section in the law book to place it in?

That could easily be changed.

Phil E
05-01-18, 13:01
That could easily be changed.

So add an U18 chapter just to include the line "no squeeze ball"..........right after making the book 50% shorter!

crossref
05-01-18, 13:01
They can't have an u18 section as that's delegated to unions
They could put no squeezeball in the u19 section, and then it would by default apply to u18 as well, unless a union in their u18 regs specifically said it was ok (which I think would be very unlikely)

Dickie E
05-01-18, 21:01
A coroner ?

"it is my sad duty to inform you Mr Rumpole, and your client, that the young boy has died"
"Most regrettable, Your Honour"
"Was your client, World Rugby, aware that the technique known as 'squeezeball' was dangerous?"
"Oh yes, Your Honour. Then known as the IRB, they issued a directive in 2001 that it be banned for children"
"A directive? Why didn't they outlaw it in their own global law book, as they did for cavalry charge and flying wedge?"
"Well, they only wanted to ban it for U18 and there is only a variation section for U19. Get's very messy"
"Quite. Why didn't they ban it for U19 then? 17 year olds, 18 year olds ... not a significant difference"
"I see your point, Your Honour"
So, having issued the directive, did all Unions implement the ban?"
My client is not aware, Your Honour"
So, here we are, 17 years after the directive was issued, and they didn't follow up to ensure the ban was in place and have no idea who did and didn't implement it?"
"Well, no, Your Honour. Things got a bit busy ... 2003 World Cup and all that. I guess ... they forgot"
.
.
.
.

thepercy
05-01-18, 23:01
If it's dangerous, why allow it at any level? What does it add to the game?

Dickie E
06-01-18, 00:01
If it's dangerous, why allow it at any level? What does it add to the game?

Agree. It only allows the isolated tackled player the opportunity to obstruct the opposition from getting the ball.

Dickie E
06-01-18, 00:01
I'm now in an interesting position as a ref.

I now have knowledge that the IRB directed that squeezeball be banned for U18. I have had no correspondence from ARU either confirming or negating this directive.

So what do I do next Saturday?

SimonSmith
06-01-18, 01:01
"Yes m'lud, governance of U18 law variations is expressly delegated to the local Unions, who have signed up to that idea"

Buck duly passed.

Dickie E
06-01-18, 02:01
"Yes m'lud, governance of U18 law variations is expressly delegated to the local Unions, who have signed up to that idea"

Buck duly passed.

and, of course, that would all be academic because referee Dickie E would be in the dock, wondering why he didn't transfer the house into Mrs Dickie's name when he had the chance :(

Christy
06-01-18, 10:01
If you see squeeze ball & its not in your union . ( in youth matches )
Penalise player anyway & advise him its also dangerous to them selves .

Sanction can be .
Off feet red 7 & making ball unplayable .
Penalty only.

Simon Thomas
06-01-18, 10:01
Squeezeball in RFUland is illegal still at U18 under nationally delegated law variations as far as I am aware.

No, it does not appear in the U19 WR law variations, for the reasons a number of posters give above.

I have asked up the RFU Match Officiating Management tree for confirmation, but as an active Match Observer I expect any squeezeball to be managed and sanctioned appropriately in U18 matches.

The Group refs I watch cover Premiership Academy matches so have specifically asked about that level.

Simon Thomas
07-01-18, 15:01
Word back from on high that squeezeball is not allowed at any level of U18 rugby in England, even Premiership Academy Level.
It is liable to PK sanction but might be managed in the first instance on some occasions.

menace
07-01-18, 23:01
I'm now in an interesting position as a ref.

I now have knowledge that the IRB directed that squeezeball be banned for U18. I have had no correspondence from ARU either confirming or negating this directive.

So what do I do next Saturday?

But you do? You have the ARU 2017 GMG that is clear that squeezeball in Oz is only outlawed at u12 and below. Your @ss is sufficiently covered.

The irb request (rather than a directive as i see it) was 17 years ago...it's not on their website and what we don't know is there may have subsequently been messages from irb that softened their 'demand' and allows unions to decide themselves on such local rulings like squeezeball and crocodile rolls etc??

Dickie E
08-01-18, 00:01
But you do? You have the ARU 2017 GMG that is clear that squeezeball in Oz is only outlawed at u12 and below. Your @ss is sufficiently covered.

The irb request (rather than a directive as i see it) was 17 years ago...it's not on their website and what we don't know is there may have subsequently been messages from irb that softened their 'demand' and allows unions to decide themselves on such local rulings like squeezeball and crocodile rolls etc??

Yes and I have now confirmed independently with ARU that squeezeball is only outlawed in U12 & below in Aust. I hope it doesn't bite us on the arse.

Simon Thomas
09-01-18, 08:01
Communicated to me by RFU Head of Officiating for the Community Game

For clarity, RFU Regulation 15, Appendix 9 covers the point;
3. Squeezeball:
No player shall use the technique known or referred to as “Squeezeball” and no person involved in the teaching or coaching of rugby may teach or coach to encourage the use the “Squeezeball” technique.
Note: “Squeezeball” is a technique where the ball carrier goes to ground, head forward (touching or close to the ground), irrespective of immediate contact with opponents, usually keeping parallel to the touchline, holding and protecting the ball close to the chest and, when on the ground, pushing the ball back between the legs.

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/72/59/RFURegulation15Appendix9_English.pdf

Hope this helps to inform the appropriate behaviour of coaches and for consistent safe application of the law.

Dickie E
09-01-18, 09:01
Communicated to me by RFU Head of Officiating for the Community Game

For clarity, RFU Regulation 15, Appendix 9 covers the point;
3. Squeezeball:
No player shall use the technique known or referred to as “Squeezeball” and no person involved in the teaching or coaching of rugby may teach or coach to encourage the use the “Squeezeball” technique.
Note: “Squeezeball” is a technique where the ball carrier goes to ground, head forward (touching or close to the ground), irrespective of immediate contact with opponents, usually keeping parallel to the touchline, holding and protecting the ball close to the chest and, when on the ground, pushing the ball back between the legs.

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/72/59/RFURegulation15Appendix9_English.pdf

Hope this helps to inform the appropriate behaviour of coaches and for consistent safe application of the law.

Boys only???

Dan_A
09-01-18, 09:01
Boys only???

No, it's in the junior girls regs too:-
http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/72/61/RFURegulation15Appendix11_English.pdf

TigerCraig
09-01-18, 21:01
No, it's in the junior girls regs too:-
http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/72/61/RFURegulation15Appendix11_English.pdf

I think he means adults as well???

Simon Thomas
09-01-18, 23:01
Regulation 15 is for Age Grade Rugby (under 18 years) only.

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/32/72/38/RFURegulation15_English.pdf

Camquin
10-01-18, 01:01
There are 11 appendices to reg 15 covering different age grades and sexes and squeezeball is banned in all of them.
I do not know why they quoted that specific one.

Dickie E
10-01-18, 02:01
5. The Scrum:
a) There is no ‘turnover’ law. If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45 degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond 45 degrees.

This one is interesting. I thought it was standard practice globally that, if a scrum wheels, the team that originally fed the scrum did so again.

TigerCraig
10-01-18, 02:01
5. The Scrum:
a) There is no ‘turnover’ law. If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45 degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond 45 degrees.

This one is interesting. I thought it was standard practice globally that, if a scrum wheels, the team that originally fed the scrum did so again.

It is now, but it wasn't when the age variation was put in (plus 45 deg v 90 deg)

Dickie E
10-01-18, 02:01
It is now, but it wasn't when the age variation was put in (plus 45 deg v 90 deg)

the RFU document is dated 1 August 2017 and I assume is still current. This "no turover" stuff came in some time ago from memory. Certainly at least 2016 in Aust.

menace
10-01-18, 03:01
5. The Scrum:
a) There is no ‘turnover’ law. If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45 degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond 45 degrees.

This one is interesting. I thought it was standard practice globally that, if a scrum wheels, the team that originally fed the scrum did so again.
Notwithstanding that you are correct, I quite like this rule for age grade. It helps to be able to reward a dominant scrum at juniors as imo it is difficult to determine an intentional wheel and looks silly to pk a scrum that goes to 45 (but not whip wheeled to 90) as it usually just turns slowly to that angle.

Most times you see junior scrums wheel to 45 it is unintentional but occurs as one side is dominant (same as the 1.5m push!).
The u18 scrum laws, as such, make it difficult to reward the dominating scrum. So if they won the ball before it gets to 45 then why shouldnt they they get the chance to use it (even if it is to feed a new scrum).
I would like to see that rule applied here.

crossref
10-01-18, 08:01
5. The Scrum:
a) There is no ‘turnover’ law. If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45 degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond 45 degrees.

This one is interesting. I thought it was standard practice globally that, if a scrum wheels, the team that originally fed the scrum did so again.
That's for U15 and U14 and has been there a while (we have discussed it here )
It's odd. At no other age group is possession important , above u15 it's determined by who originally threw in

didds
10-01-18, 09:01
The u18 scrum laws, as such, make it difficult to reward the dominating scrum. .

I might suggest the U18 laws are designed generally speking to not reward dominant scrummaging, and safe scrummaging is the focus.

That said safe scrummaging isn't penalised in the manner discussed when it results in securing the ball.

didds

Pinky
10-01-18, 13:01
Dickie, that is current U19 law, and there was a change to the full scrum laws a few years ago to make it same team as originally threw in. Of course all this presumes the wheel is not intentional, when it is a PK.

TheBFG
05-11-18, 14:11
Pretty sure I've not seen this one come up.

Saturday, part way through the game and the weather is horrible wind rain the works! I notice it's got very dark, so i ask the home captain if the floodlights can be turned on? He says yes and calls to someone on the touchline.

From the home pack player says, " you can't turn the lights on part way through the game, they have to be on from the start"!

:wow: :chin:

crossref
05-11-18, 15:11
This is competition regs rather than a Law

I would say at grassroots if both captains agree happy days
If they disagree they stay off. If it's too dark to play you abandon the game .

Marc Wakeham
05-11-18, 16:11
Dickie, that is current U19 law, and there was a change to the full scrum laws a few years ago to make it same team as originally threw in. Of course all this presumes the wheel is not intentional, when it is a PK.

It is not illegal to intentionally wheel a scrum at "full laws".

Marc Wakeham
05-11-18, 16:11
This is competition regs rather than a Law

I would say at grassroots if both captains agree happy days
If they disagree they stay off. If it's too dark to play you abandon the game .

I'd be very surprised to see that in competition regulations

didds
05-11-18, 16:11
It is not illegal to intentionally wheel a scrum at "full laws".

correct.

I noted in the Wales v Scotland game scotland IIRC were PKd for "wheeling the scrum" but no further explananation was made as to what exactly was PKd. As Marc says - wheeling is in itself not illegal at full senior level. Rather the actions that bring about the wheel may be.

didds

crossref
05-11-18, 17:11
I'd be very surprised to see that in competition regulations

I am pretty sure it's in the regs for Premiership , and also in World Rugby regs for internationals

On the other hand I don't recall it mentioned in the regs for the Middlesex Merit Tables :-)

SimonSmith
05-11-18, 18:11
Pretty sure I've not seen this one come up.

Saturday, part way through the game and the weather is horrible wind rain the works! I notice it's got very dark, so i ask the home captain if the floodlights can be turned on? He says yes and calls to someone on the touchline.

From the home pack player says, " you can't turn the lights on part way through the game, they have to be on from the start"!

:wow: :chin:

"Skip, I can't see who said that. Makes me think it's too dark to continue"

Marc Wakeham
05-11-18, 23:11
I am pretty sure it's in the regs for Premiership , and also in World Rugby regs for internationals

On the other hand I don't recall it mentioned in the regs for the Middlesex Merit Tables :-)

A reference would be handy.

crossref
06-11-18, 07:11
A reference would be handy.

Challenge accepted!

Here's an example from the Championship Regs
Regulation 5.8
.Clubs that use floodlights for a Match are required to have them turned on at the start of the Match.

https://www.englandrugby.com/governance/regulations/#

:pepper:

Marc Wakeham
06-11-18, 08:11
Thnks for that. What an odd regulation. Effectively saying Tur them on and waste power etc when they are not needed or else. Anybody know the "logic" behind this?

crossref
06-11-18, 09:11
It woukd be an unfair advantage to the home team if they could unilaterally to keep the lights off, or turn them on during the game

Balones
06-11-18, 10:11
It is actually to do with the fact that the lights take several minutes (as much as 20) to get to full power and while they are coming on tend to come on at different rates. For this reason you get areas of deep shadow and areas of bright light. Also they can flicker on suddenly and cause a glare. All of which can have some safety implications.

The above was the reason when floodlights started to become more common place quite a few years ago and the powering up has improved but it all depends on the age of the system etc so the regulations have stayed in place.

Marc Wakeham
06-11-18, 11:11
It woukd be an unfair advantage to the home team if they could unilaterally to keep the lights off, or turn them on during the game

I can't see how it would be an advantage to either side. Surely both sides and the referee need to see the ball etc.

Marc Wakeham
06-11-18, 11:11
It is actually to do with the fact that the lights take several minutes (as much as 20) to get to full power and while they are coming on tend to come on at different rates. For this reason you get areas of deep shadow and areas of bright light. Also they can flicker on suddenly and cause a glare. All of which can have some safety implications.

The above was the reason when floodlights started to become more common place quite a few years ago and the powering up has improved but it all depends on the age of the system etc so the regulations have stayed in place.

I can't see that that is very relevant today. The quality of lights, even down in the sticks is very good, here in Wales at least. If our clubs can do it I can't see why English clubs should have an issue. A logical time to switch them on would be as the players go off for half time. That gives plenty of time for lights to "settle".

crossref
06-11-18, 11:11
In reality if both captains want the lights turned on, then the lights will go on, right ? Happy days

These regs bite only when/if the captains disagree.
Which will surely be very rare indeed

Marc Wakeham
06-11-18, 14:11
Trouble with that crossref is during the game ref asks captains who both say "turn them on please". Then, after Blue win 15-13, Red coach says "That's against the regulations!". Club then launches an official complaint!

Pinky
06-11-18, 14:11
I am sure that part of the issue is to cover when the lights should come on - in my memory I recall times the lights could not be put on more than them failing during the game (although that is not unknown)

crossref
06-11-18, 14:11
Sure, but it's a remote chance and at grassroots level I am sure that the organiser would be pragmatic

For the MMT every decision I hear about seems eminently pragmatic

crossref
06-11-18, 14:11
In the old days when you turned lights off, you had to wait two houts for them to cool down before you could switch them on again.
I remember that

Balones
06-11-18, 18:11
I can't see that that is very relevant today. The quality of lights, even down in the sticks is very good, here in Wales at least. If our clubs can do it I can't see why English clubs should have an issue. A logical time to switch them on would be as the players go off for half time. That gives plenty of time for lights to "settle".

You are right it is not so relevant. It is just a case of the regulations not keeping up with tecjnology. Nice to know that the floodlights in Wales are now better than when I used to play under them when I lived there.:)

Richard smith
18-11-18, 23:11
Agree completely about RFU regulation 15 being unclear on squeezeball.
.
IF the regulation is unclear, why not look uk the U19 variations of the laws of the game :)

chbg
19-11-18, 14:11
IF the regulation is unclear, why not look uk the U19 variations of the laws of the game :)

Because there is no reference to it in World Rugby U19 Variations - this is absolutely a RFU safety requirement. The lack of clarity purely concerns the Sanction - FK (as at U13, the only Regulation where the sanction is specified, but no PKs at this age group) or PK. For me definitely a PK at U15 and above.

Flish
19-11-18, 15:11
Squeezeball is sanctioned at U14 too, a FK, and there are Penalties at U14 so you could argue it's FK sanction at all other age grades too (it is at U12 and below too but mostly there's only FK's there too)