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jdeagro
23-06-18, 22:06
What is the minimum number of players in a set lineout for the throwing team?

In other words, does the thrower count towards the 2 player minimum?

Taff
24-06-18, 08:06
What is the minimum number of players in a set lineout for the throwing team? In other words, does the thrower count towards the 2 player minimum?
No.

The "thrower" doesn't count, as he is not one "of the players who form the two lines that make a lineout"

To form a lineout, there must be at least 4 players (at least 2 from each side) in the 2 lines which make the lineout. The important point to remember is that until there are at least 2 from each side in the 2 lines, the lineout hasn't formed and the option of a QTI is still on.

Once there are at least 2 players from each side in the 2 lines, the LO has "formed" and the QTI option dies.

jdeagro
24-06-18, 13:06
You bring up an interesting point that invoked another question from me.

If the option for a QTI is always available until at least 2 players from each side form 2 lines, isn't the throwing team then always able to take a QTI if they always choose to not send players to form a line at the spot of the lineout?

crossref
24-06-18, 13:06
You bring up an interesting point that invoked another question from me.

If the option for a QTI is always available until at least 2 players from each side form 2 lines, isn't the throwing team then always able to take a QTI if they always choose to not send players to form a line at the spot of the lineout?

Correct

ChrisR
24-06-18, 13:06
If all other criteria for a QTI are met then the QTI is still on until the LO forms (see above). Then, before the throwing team put two in the LO the nall could be thrown to the throwers SH and away we go.

This, from the 2017 laws, would hinder that ploy but was removed for the 2018 version:

(d) When the ball is in touch , every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do
so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay.
Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the
lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Taff
24-06-18, 14:06
You bring up an interesting point that invoked another question from me. If the option for a QTI is always available until at least 2 players from each side form 2 lines, isn't the throwing team then always able to take a QTI if they always choose to not send players to form a line at the spot of the lineout?
Within reason yes.

I saw "within reason" because if they fanny around too much the Ref can give a Free Kick against them for wasting time. The opposition can put 2 players in the LO, but 1 side can't "form" a LO on it's own so the QTI option is still an option till it dies, which is why you sometimes hear the phrase "Zombie ball" ie the ball may be dead but it can come back to life via a QTI at any second. Once the ball has been touched, or the LO has formed though, there is no longer a QTI option and the ball is stone dead.

BTW you won't find "Zombie ball" in the book, but it's referred to here quite often and makes it so much easier to understand. :biggrin:

jdeagro
24-06-18, 16:06
Cool.

And when you see the throwing team trying to deploy a QTI but the defending team has a guy or two waving his hands in the air to try and block it from possibly happening, is this legal of the defenders?

If so, how many defenders can do this, where can and can't they stand to do this (e.g. within the 5 meter channel?, anywhere up and down the field?) , and are there specific laws dictating that or has this become more of a generally accepted way to referee this?

crossref
24-06-18, 17:06
1 You can't stop the ball from going 5m - so you can't stand in the 5m channel and block the throw.

2 If you were offside from the kick, and continued to move forwards, then you can't benefit from being offside, and can't defend the throw

3 If you were offside from the kick, remained stationary until the ball went into touch, you probably then can advance and defend the throw (not everyone agrees with this)

Otherwise you are free to stand where you like an wave your arms

jdeagro
25-06-18, 00:06
Sounds good. Thanks!

Camquin
25-06-18, 10:06
Point of order, the side throwing in may well be the defending. :-)

I believe that if I as ref have to stop the clock for an injury - then QTI is off and we have a lineout.
But I would stuggle to back that up in law.

crossref
25-06-18, 11:06
I don't actually agree with the last bit .. if it's an injury where I am playing on , I would continue to play on through the QTI opportunity, same as I would let them take a quick tap if there was a PK

Marc Wakeham
25-06-18, 12:06
If all other criteria for a QTI are met then the QTI is still on until the LO forms (see above). Then, before the throwing team put two in the LO the nall could be thrown to the throwers SH and away we go.

This, from the 2017 laws, would hinder that ploy but was removed for the 2018 version:

(d) When the ball is in touch , every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do
so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay.
Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the
lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line


What about this?

Law 18.17. Once the lineout is formed, players:
a. From the team throwing in may not leave the lineout other than to change
positions with other participating players.
b. From the non-throwing team may leave the lineout only to ensure that they do
not have more players than the opposition.

So, it has not been removed at all.

Marc Wakeham
25-06-18, 12:06
I don't actually agree with the last bit .. if it's an injury where I am playing on , I would continue to play on through the QTI opportunity, same as I would let them take a quick tap if there was a PK

Whilst I agree that we can play on when there is an injury and I would also allow a QTI if it was reasonable to play on. Camquin is right as well





I believe that if I as ref have to stop the clock for an injury - then QTI is off and we have a lineout.
But I would stuggle to back that up in law.

Here is your justification in law:


The referee may stop play and allow time for:
a. Player injury for up to one minute. If a player is seriously injured, the referee has
the discretion to allow more than one minute for that player to be removed from the playing area. 5.5

If you feel that the injury requires you to stop play i.e. "if I as ref have to stop the clock for an injury", a QTI is now not possible. WIt is worth stressing the point as yo udid that we dont need to stop the clock for every injury BUT if we HAVE to stop for an injury and time is off then thr QTI is a no no.

crossref
25-06-18, 12:06
We are saying the same thing, I think
But the stop/play on decision is at the time of the injury, I wouldn't review that decision if a QTI came up, if I was playing on already, I am still playing on

Marc Wakeham
25-06-18, 13:06
We are saying the same thing, I think
But the stop/play on decision is at the time of the injury, I wouldn't review that decision if a QTI came up, if I was playing on already, I am still playing on



I don't actually agree with the last bit

So by disagreing you re saying the same thing. Fair enough.

crossref
25-06-18, 13:06
Marc, it's a question of context :biggrin:

Marc Wakeham
25-06-18, 14:06
Indeed it is. So use some!

Treadmore
25-06-18, 18:06
Indeed it is. So use some!

he did

I don't actually agree with the last bit .. if it's an injury where I am playing on

Marc Wakeham
25-06-18, 19:06
The point being he disagreed with the post who made the point: " if I as ref have to stop the clock for an injury" and there claims to agree.

There is a clear inference in the original that If I don't need to stop the clock I will not do so. But, if I have to then no QTI. So he removed the context of Having to stop the clock. But never mind.

ChrisR
25-06-18, 19:06
What about this?

Law 18.17. Once the lineout is formed, players:
a. From the team throwing in may not leave the lineout other than to change
positions with other participating players.
b. From the non-throwing team may leave the lineout only to ensure that they do
not have more players than the opposition.

So, it has not been removed at all.

Not the same thing at all. Whay you are referencing is law pertaining to players leaving. What was removed is law pertaining to players joining.

Marc Wakeham
28-06-18, 14:06
Two players from each side are still required to for a line out (18.11)
Once formed players must not leave (18.17)

So once player arrive / form the line out they can't leave So you don't sent more than one in unless you want to form the LO.


Simplfying the laws and making them less clear, I agree. But logically the effect is unchanged.

crossref
28-06-18, 14:06
The old laws prohibited players from merely approaching the lineout, and then not joining it , but instead changing their mind at the last minute and falling back (ie playing silly buggers with numbers )

That didn't make the new law book

Marc Wakeham
28-06-18, 18:06
Read the new law in the CONTEXT that the law has not changed. I'm off to watch my paint dry. Bye for now.

crossref
28-06-18, 19:06
Well, the context (or, as you call it CONTEXT) is explained in post 20 above.