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Dickie E
21-11-18, 20:11
is there a standard position for the 2 ARs at scrum time? I have a view, but interested in what others think/do.

Marc Wakeham
21-11-18, 20:11
One oposite the referee watching the the props . The other should mark the defensive 5.

SimonSmith
22-11-18, 00:11
Middle of the field - go right.
Close to the 15 - I'm infield, AR is on the tunnel, distant AR is defensive 5m.

Dickie E
22-11-18, 01:11
One oposite the referee watching the the props . The other should mark the defensive 5.

that's how I see it. I can't see the point in an AR marking the attacking 5 metre line.

Only time I'd do differently may be at a defending 5 metre scrum close to the touch line. There is more likley to be a critical incident in-goal that the ref may need support on.

menace
22-11-18, 01:11
First and foremost it's whatever the referee wants from you and what assistance he delegates to you. That will dictate positioning.

As an AR I hold the referee responsible to brief me in what they want from me (and what they dont want). Some referees want to own the entire scrum responsibility. If they give me nothing then I use the classic lead and lag approach. Ie near side then lagging on the attacking 5m o/s and farside leading on the defensive o/s line.

As a referee - there's some ARs I trust more than others for input. If I trust them for scrum offence calls then if scrum near side they perpendicular/adjacent to tunnel (if im in field) and far side leading on defensive side o/s.
Mind you AR adjacent to tunnel is only useful if there is radio comms to feed you info.

menace
22-11-18, 01:11
that's how I see it. I can't see the point in an AR marking the attacking 5 metre line.

Only time I'd do differently may be at a defending 5 metre scrum close to the touch line. There is more likley to be a critical incident in-goal that the ref may need support on.

Unless they have comms there's no point having them at the tunnel..they may as well be at the 5m line keeping the *******s honest then lagging for foul play in the scrum break up as the ball has moved away.

Dickie E
22-11-18, 01:11
Unless they have comms there's no point having them at the tunnel...

it is not uncommon for the ref to ask the AR at next stoppage (eg lineout) if there are any problems with binding etc. I'd hate to be the one to say "sorry, you didn't ask me to look for that so I've been counting butterflies".

menace
22-11-18, 02:11
it is not uncommon for the ref to ask the AR at next stoppage (eg lineout) if there are any problems with binding etc. I'd hate to be the one to say "sorry, you didn't ask me to look for that so I've been counting butterflies".

Difference of approach I guess. I can still see the side of the scrum at the 5m offside just the same as I can see it adjacent to the tunnel. I'm usually at the tunnel cause the ref wants me there and it's for a purpose to be there that I can help real time. In reality it probably either position doesnt really make that big of a difference.
Using my trusty trigonometry the angle of viewing only changes between 7 to 9 degrees and changes the viewing distance differnce of up to 2m....so hardly major. Tom-arto /Tom-ayto.

(But butterflies are pretty and deserve our attention too)

didds
22-11-18, 09:11
that's how I see it. I can't see the point in an AR marking the attacking 5 metre line.


there are two ARs/TJs/blokes with a hanky and a dog.

why wouldn;t one mark the defnsive 5m, and the other the attacking - with the AR/TJ/BWAHAAD on the side of the pitch most likely to be kicked to marking the defensive ie upfield 5m ?

didds

Dickie E
22-11-18, 09:11
there are two ARs/TJs/blokes with a hanky and a dog.

why wouldn;t one mark the defnsive 5m, and the other the attacking -

for the same reason nobody marks the attacking 10m at a lineout. Pointless.

didds
22-11-18, 10:11
so why do the laws require it if its pointless?

If eg at scrums the attackers can creep to almost the back feet then they've just bought 5m of space and its easier to get over the gain line ( I also see the tactical advantages of having that extra 5m of space to attack in but this is about attackers not keeping 5m etc for now...)

didds

menace
22-11-18, 10:11
It's more that at a lineout one AR marking the line of touch. So there's only 1 AR left to mark 2 offside lines. The defence has 'more' incentive to reduce the space so the protocol is for the farside AR to mark the defensive side. But ref and AR can still see the attacking side and if they take the p!ss and are miles offside they can still be nabbed!

didds
22-11-18, 11:11
yes - i see that resource issue at lineouts. but it doesn't exist at scrummages, so I'm still struggling to see why one AR cant cover the attacking 5m, and why the attackers' 5m line is not seen as important.

didds

OB..
22-11-18, 11:11
yes - i see that resource issue at lineouts. but it doesn't exist at scrummages, so I'm still struggling to see why one AR cant cover the attacking 5m, and why the attackers' 5m line is not seen as important.

diddsGenerally speaking the defenders lie flat whereas the attackers line up in echelon formation, so you only need to ensure that the fly half is back 5m. The defenders might move up early, but the attackers will wait for possession.

Marc Wakeham
22-11-18, 14:11
there are two ARs/TJs/blokes with a hanky and a dog.

why wouldn;t one mark the defnsive 5m, and the other the attacking - with the AR/TJ/BWAHAAD on the side of the pitch most likely to be kicked to marking the defensive ie upfield 5m ?

didds


Well:


AR - They can input

TJ - no so relevant - can't "officially" input though helpful advice can be useful.

Blokes with a hanky and a dog - not relevant at all - Once touch flag not of much use at all.


From the tunnel position you can see the 10 and (along with the referee) keep him honest. Where is the bigger problem going to occur? In the front row.

The attacking backs want to move onto the the ball preferably with some pace. Therefore it makes little sense for them to close down the space. Of course there will always be a, very rare, exception but I'd worry about the more likely events rather than a 1 in a million chance.

Dickie E
22-11-18, 19:11
The attacking backs want to move onto the the ball preferably with some pace. Therefore it makes little sense for them to close down the space. Of course there will always be a, very rare, exception but I'd worry about the more likely events rather than a 1 in a million chance.

That is how I see it too. The other issue is that if you mark 5 metres for the first 3 or 4 scrums but then don't (eg ref asks you to stand in tunnel) the players get upset because all of a sudden they don't have you to lean on.

menace
22-11-18, 21:11
yes - i see that resource issue at lineouts. but it doesn't exist at scrummages, so I'm still struggling to see why one AR cant cover the attacking 5m, and why the attackers' 5m line is not seen as important.

didds

Ill answer that. Nothing stopping it and it is still used widely and it is still effective.

Some have this preference that the nearside AR should be in the tunnel all the time. It seems to have become popular from TV refs doing it or it sends a message to the players they are being watched more carefully. I will only AR adjacent to the tunnel if the ref wants me there and wants live scrum calls (usually only when we have radio comms).
I dont think either really matters - both are effective (and only as effective as the observation skills of the AR)

Marc Wakeham
23-11-18, 15:11
Ill answer that...

I think serveral of us have already answered that. Posts 13, 15 and 16 for example.



... Nothing stopping it and it is still used widely and it is still effective.

Some have this preference that the nearside AR should be in the tunnel all the time.



Personally I feel it better to be level with the tunnel able to watch the offside line, rather than the other way around. It seems preferable to give priority to the primary concern (the scrum) and keep and eye on the secondary issue (the attacking side possibly reducing their own attacking space.) But, of course, we are all different.



...only as effective as the observation skills of the AR


That goes without saying!

menace
24-11-18, 01:11
I think serveral of us have already answered that. Posts 13, 15 and 16 for example.




Personally I feel it better to be level with the tunnel able to watch the offside line, rather than the other way around. It seems preferable to give priority to the primary concern (the scrum) and keep and eye on the secondary issue (the attacking side possibly reducing their own attacking space.) But, of course, we are all different.




That goes without saying!

Didds asked so I thought Id have ago to help. Sorry if that wasted your time and seems to have upset you.

I ve mentioned more than once Im happy with the tunnel position when there is comms. As the AR can be effective when there is an offence. Without comms there's little you can do to assist with the scrum (except foul play maybe) even if it is a primary issue you can do no more at the tunnel than you can 5m back.
Without comms, marking the attacking 5 has the added value of just being there then the back line can see you and you can keep them honest. You can even talk to the winger to get them to manage their team to be onside.
I think this is one of those horses for courses things and not going to die in a ditch over it.

I know I said a very obvious thing about observation skills, it wasn't trying to be condescending, unlike your retort it seems, but it was merely to reinforce that the near side AR positioning isnt the most critical factor to managing the scrum. That obviously went over your head.

frenchie851
24-01-19, 13:01
at the community level I ask the two guys I give a flag to to mark the opposition back 5m at every scrum, this covers attack and defence.

As a AR myself (@Lvl 5 or 6 )I have been asked to stay level with the scrum when it is on my half of the field and add any input 'if it is clear and obvious'.... droping a bind, boring in etc. The attacking team back 5 therefore wasn't marked.

I suppose it is up to the ref to instruct the ARs what he wants from them?

OB..
19-02-19, 22:02
I asked our training officer at tonight's referees'meeting what he would do if only one AR turned up (we are now appointing ARs for cup matches in March and April).

He had never met the problem but thought he would probably disallow reporting foul play but still keep the comms. I hope he takes it to the committee.

Dickie E
19-02-19, 23:02
He had never met the problem but thought he would probably disallow reporting foul play but still keep the comms.

So the AR could call in that the Blue #13 was offside at the last scrum but couldn't call in that Blue #7 punched an opponent?



I hope he takes it to the committee.

I hope he takes it to his therapist