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crossref
05-12-18, 19:12
Seeing as we are discussing players blocking QTI from going 5m, let's return to another old chestnut .. what sanction do you customarily give for a player who prevents the ball from going 5m at a lineout ?

Camquin
05-12-18, 20:12
Same as I would for levering on a opponent, holding shoving or charging.

crossref
05-12-18, 20:12
He he, I see what you did there :)

Dickie E
05-12-18, 21:12
Seeing as we are discussing players blocking QTI from going 5m, let's return to another old chestnut .. what sanction do you customarily give for a player who prevents the ball from going 5m at a lineout ?

if its a timing issue, usually scrum/lineout option to opponents. If its egregious, FK

Taff
05-12-18, 21:12
. .. what sanction do you customarily give for a player who prevents the ball from going 5m at a lineout ?
Without looking it up, I thought it was FK on the 15m line.


if its a timing issue, usually scrum/lineout option to opponents.
Again without looking it up, I thought the LO / Scrum option was only available if the thrower ballsed it up. Eg if he had a foot in the FoP, he failed to throw it 5m or he failed to throw it in straight. :chin:

crossref
05-12-18, 21:12
taff, what do think now you have time to look it up ?

Dickie E
05-12-18, 22:12
23. The ball must:
a. Be thrown in straight along the mark of touch; and
b. Reach the five-metre line before it hits the ground or is played.
Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum. If the lineout is chosen and the ball is again not thrown straight, a scrum is awarded to the team that originally threw in the ball.

menace
05-12-18, 23:12
23. The ball must:
a. Be thrown in straight along the mark of touch; and
b. Reach the five-metre line before it hits the ground or is played.
Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum. If the lineout is chosen and the ball is again not thrown straight, a scrum is awarded to the team that originally threw in the ball.

This only when the numpty thrower can't get it to the 5m.


if its a timing issue, usually scrum/lineout option to opponents. If its egregious, FK

Timing issue IS egregious.
So for me FK to opponent every time a player prevents it going 5m. (Nothing happens by accident :wink:).

Plus it has the added bonus of getting on with the game and not to dick around with a scrum where another sanction is probably the result!

Ps i can never recall a complaint from any team being awarded a FK protesting it should be a scrum...nor the offending team for that matter :biggrin:

crossref
06-12-18, 06:12
!

Ps i can never recall a complaint from any team being awarded a FK protesting it should be a scrum...nor the offending team for that matter :biggrin:
Sooner or later a player is going to ask you for a Law Reference :)

Rich_NL
06-12-18, 08:12
This happens a few times a season for me, lowest leagues and junior rugby. Enough to usually stand by the thrower at attacking LOs in the 22...

The front player at the lineout fakes a lift, turns around to the hooker and takes a step forward, hands outstretched to catch the short ball, which only goes 3m. LO/scrum option.

menace
06-12-18, 09:12
Sooner or later a player is going to ask you for a Law Reference :)

Simple. Ill refer them to 18.6.

menace
06-12-18, 09:12
This happens a few times a season for me, lowest leagues and junior rugby. Enough to usually stand by the thrower at attacking LOs in the 22...

The front player at the lineout fakes a lift, turns around to the hooker and takes a step forward, hands outstretched to catch the short ball, which only goes 3m. LO/scrum option.

For me that's a FK..

The ball must reach the five-metre line before it is played and a player must not prevent the ball from travelling five metres. Sanction: Free-kick.

menace
06-12-18, 09:12
I must admit I'm perplexed why some would give a scrum/lo when a player (from either team) prevents the ball from reaching the 5m line?

The part of law 18 that results in that option is:
THROWING INTO A LINEOUT

22. The player throwing in the ball stands on the mark of touch with both feet outside the field of play. The thrower must not step into the field of play until the ball has been thrown. Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum.
23. The ball must:

a. Be thrown in straight along the mark of touch; and

b. Reach the five-metre line before it hits the ground or is played.
Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum. If the lineout is chosen and the ball is again not thrown straight, a scrum is awarded to the team that originally threw in the ball.

Surely that has to be interpreted as an offence by the thrower? (It's grouped with throwing offences)

didds
06-12-18, 10:12
It seems harsh to FK somebody for what maybe merely a mistake, rather than a deliberate attempt to circumnavifagate the laws I guess.

Not that Fks are worth anything.

Can one choose a lineout for a lineout FK award now? Or is that only PKs? Or was that a trial that has now ended? Or cheese or something green?

didds

Taff
06-12-18, 11:12
taff, what do think now you have time to look it up ?
Don't need to look it up. I'm confident. :biggrin:


... The front player at the lineout fakes a lift, turns around to the hooker and takes a step forward, hands outstretched to catch the short ball, which only goes 3m. LO/scrum option.
Sorry, but I don't think it is a LO / Scrum option in that case.

I've discussed this before with an assessor and was told that my understanding was right. If the thrower cocks it up - then there are options. But if the front player (as in your example) cocks it up and catches the ball before the ball reaches the 5m line, then it's FK.

Rich_NL
06-12-18, 11:12
For me that's a FK..

The ball must reach the five-metre line before it is played and a player must not prevent the ball from travelling five metres. Sanction: Free-kick.

That's from the Quick Throw section, not throwing into the lineout - 18.6 instead of 18.23. I think we agree that QTIs have different laws to lineouts?


Sorry, but I don't think it is a LO / Scrum option in that case.

I've discussed this before with an assessor and was told that my understanding was right. If the thrower cocks it up - then there are options. But if the front player (as in your example) cocks it up and catches the ball before the ball reaches the 5m line, then it's FK.

Then why does 18.23 say "... before it hits the ground *or is played*"? That makes no sense.

When throwing into a lineout, the ball is not going 5m before it is played. I'm really not sure how much clearer the law could be.

I've also discussed this with an assessor/ref coach, so somewhere something is not going right ;) has it maybe changed in the past?

Pinky
06-12-18, 12:12
For me, the key issue for the sanction is who stopped the ball going 5m. If the thrower or a member of the throwing team, I am offering options to the non-throwing team. If a non-throwing team player stops the ball going 5m I am blowing a FK for blocking the throw. There is no specific sanction for this other than in 18.6 for QTI, but it is one of the drawings of things not allowed.

menace
06-12-18, 12:12
That's from the Quick Throw section, not throwing into the lineout - 18.6 instead of 18.23. I think we agree that QTIs have different laws to lineouts?



Then why does 18.23 say "... before it hits the ground *or is played*"? That makes no sense.

When throwing into a lineout, the ball is not going 5m before it is played. I'm really not sure how much clearer the law could be.

I've also discussed this with an assessor/ref coach, so somewhere something is not going right ;) has it maybe changed in the past?

Bloody good point (and pickup).

Yet in 2017 law book it was under "19.10 Options available in a lineout" point h.
Blocking the throw-in. A lineout player must not stand less than 5 metres from the touchline. No player may block the throw-in or prevent the ball from travelling 5 metres. Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line.

And we all know that the new 2018 version of the laws has not changed from 2017!! :wink:

WR are such a clever bunch! *sigh*

Since there is no change to 2017 laws...then Ill keep applying 2017 interpretation under 19.10 (h)!!

menace
06-12-18, 12:12
For me, the key issue for the sanction is who stopped the ball going 5m. If the thrower or a member of the throwing team, I am offering options to the non-throwing team. If a non-throwing team player stops the ball going 5m I am blowing a FK for blocking the throw. There is no specific sanction for this other than in 18.6 for QTI, but it is one of the drawings of things not allowed.
Hmmm

I cant bring myself to apply different sanctions to exactly the same offence based on who is throwing the ball? That does not seem equitable or consistent to me?

crossref
06-12-18, 13:12
This has always been an anomaly, and an ambiguity in the Law .
It a shame that the 2018 Law Book made worse by forgetting to give any sanction for blocking the throw .

Camquin
06-12-18, 14:12
Oxford used the short line out option in the Women's match -I believe the ball did just go 5m

Taff
06-12-18, 16:12
Oxford used the short line out option in the Women's match -I believe the ball did just go 5m
As long as it went 5m that's fine. "Just" 5m is good enough. :biggrin:


For me, the key issue for the sanction is who stopped the ball going 5m.
I agree Pinky, but I reckon the only people we need to concentrate on is the thrower and the 2 players at the front of the LO.

Rich_NL
06-12-18, 16:12
This has always been an anomaly, and an ambiguity in the Law .
It a shame that the 2018 Law Book made worse by forgetting to give any sanction for blocking the throw .

Is this in the spreadsheet? :)

Rich_NL
06-12-18, 16:12
This has always been an anomaly, and an ambiguity in the Law .
It a shame that the 2018 Law Book made worse by forgetting to give any sanction for blocking the throw .

Is this in the spreadsheet? :)

crossref
06-12-18, 18:12
I think it is .
Its not so much a change as an omission

Nigib
06-12-18, 19:12
As long as it went 5m that's fine. "Just" 5m is good enough. :biggrin:


I agree Pinky, but I reckon the only people we need to concentrate on is the thrower and the 2 players at the front of the LO.

It's not just the front two - also the jumper in the front pod reaching over and catching/trying to catch ahead of the oppos. FK for prevention, options for inability.