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View Full Version : Quick Line out (not quick throw in)



DarrenJones
30-05-19, 21:05
If black got the ball in touch, you decide there are 2 players from each team at the line of touch so you call "lineout set" or however you let the teams know the QTI is no longer an option. Right after you call this the black player throws the ball in straight along the line of touch to the front receiver at 5.5m. Red was sauntering back assuming a more relaxed set up to the line out. They start crying that you had called of the QTI. Because the requirement for a QTI to be over is that a lineout has been set, Would it be appropriate to say that this was a quick line out not a quick throw in and that when a QTI is called off that simply removes the options of throwing in backwards or from behind the line of touch?

SimonSmith
30-05-19, 23:05
Assuming all Black are compliant?

Play on . Stop crying.

And then maybe have a quick chat with the captain to explain what just happened.

crossref
31-05-19, 07:05
Was the "lineout" properly formed including straight lines, 1m apart, and everyone else 10m back, and a red player in the tramline ?

I wouldn't allow the OP as described as a valid lineout .

didds
31-05-19, 08:05
Was the "lineout" properly formed including straight lines, 1m apart, and everyone else 10m back, and a red player in the tramline ?

I wouldn't allow the OP as described as a valid lineout .

so to clarify - once 2 x 2 player lines are set you wouldn;t allow the throw in until both sides have fully clear 10m spacing??

didds

Dickie E
31-05-19, 09:05
Was the "lineout" properly formed including straight lines, 1m apart, and everyone else 10m back, and a red player in the tramline ?

I wouldn't allow the OP as described as a valid lineout .

Law 18.35 doesn't require everyone else back 10 as long as they continue back 10. Looks like opponent in tram lines is a requirement.

Players not participating in the lineout must remain at least 10 metres from the mark of touch on their own team’s side or behind the goal line if this is nearer. If the ball is thrown in before a player is onside, the player will not be liable to sanction if the player immediately retires to the onside position. The player cannot be put onside by the action of any other player.

Which raises an interesting question. If opponent hasn't yet reached tramlines when ball is thrown, that is a FK infringement by that player. I can't see any reference to giving him time to reach the tramlines.

crossref
31-05-19, 09:05
All our guidance is to work hard at getting line outs set up correcty - and then they run smoothly.
This one sounds like chaos.

I think if you let that go all the red team, all the spectators and (in fact) most of the black team will all think you announced that the QTI was off - and then let them take one. There is nothing in it for the ref in this circumstance.


I think there are two ways to return a ball fro touch
- a QTI which is unstrucutre, informal and quick
- a lineout which is strucutred, formal, and is properly set up

The OP is neither one nor the other, and doesn't sound like good game management.

Treadmore
31-05-19, 09:05
Law 18.35 doesn't require everyone else back 10 as long as they continue back 10. Looks like opponent in tram lines is a requirement.

Players not participating in the lineout must remain at least 10 metres from the mark of touch on their own team’s side or behind the goal line if this is nearer. If the ball is thrown in before a player is onside, the player will not be liable to sanction if the player immediately retires to the onside position. The player cannot be put onside by the action of any other player.

Which raises an interesting question. If opponent hasn't yet reached tramlines when ball is thrown, that is a FK infringement by that player. I can't see any reference to giving him time to reach the tramlines.

Indeed, it reads as a requirement on the non-throwing team, not a requirement for a line-out to be formed per se, which seems to be covered minimally by 18.9-13. And 18.14 permits a quickly taken throw at the (minimal) line-out.

It might however be good management to allow time for a bit of order at a set piece.

Rich_NL
01-06-19, 11:06
If the kicking team can get to the line of touch quickly, they're rewarded by having a chance to compete in the lineout rather than allow a (generally uncontested) QTI. So the throwing-in team has to comply with the lineout requirements and their opponents have a reasonable time to comply too, as is good LO management.

didds
01-06-19, 14:06
All our guidance is to work hard at getting line outs set up correcty - and then they run smoothly.
This one sounds like chaos.

I think if you let that go all the red team, all the spectators and (in fact) most of the black team will all think you announced that the QTI was off - and then let them take one. There is nothing in it for the ref in this circumstance.


I think there are two ways to return a ball fro touch
- a QTI which is unstrucutre, informal and quick
- a lineout which is strucutred, formal, and is properly set up

The OP is neither one nor the other, and doesn't sound like good game management.

i get that ... but that se4ems to benefit thebteam that is tardy and not orgainsed over the team that is on the ball, smart in their approach (in all senses of smart) and wants to get on with the game. why should they be constrained by the oppoosition deliberately taking time?

crossref
01-06-19, 14:06
If teams are being tardy I will manage that as well (but not with a sudden unexpected lineout gotcha)

crossref
01-06-19, 15:06
...duo ..

The Fat
02-06-19, 12:06
Was the "lineout" properly formed including straight lines, 1m apart, and everyone else 10m back, and a red player in the tramline ?

I wouldn't allow the OP as described as a valid lineout .

What if Black captain says to you at the coin toss, "Occasionally we like to go quickly on our throw into the lineout Sir".
What is your reply?

What tactics would you be prepared to allow Red to use to slow down the lineout?

Are you, as the referee, going to deliberately slow down the taking of the lineout so that it all looks textbook perfect to your eye?

crossref
02-06-19, 17:06
This thread is about managing a team that is trying to hold a surprise lineout, by going very quickly .. I gave my answer for the OP scenario . Reset the lineout .

Do you have another particular scenario in mind ? Hit me ..


(Managing teams that are trying slow things down is a different topic ... )

SimonSmith
02-06-19, 23:06
This thread is about managing a team that is trying to hold a surprise lineout, by going very quickly .. I gave my answer for the OP scenario . Reset the lineout .

Or: Managing a team who are acting compliance with the law.

If you have a law reference for holding it, then that's what we need. A "surprise" lineout that complies with law is their right; if the other team is taken by surprise, I'd rather tactfully suggest that they waken up. Referees shouldn't be in the business of pandering.

Dickie E
03-06-19, 01:06
Or: Managing a team who are acting compliance with the law.

If you have a law reference for holding it, then that's what we need. A "surprise" lineout that complies with law is their right; if the other team is taken by surprise, I'd rather tactfully suggest that they waken up. Referees shouldn't be in the business of pandering.

How many players from the non-throwing team do you require to be in position to allow the quick throw in?

Drift
03-06-19, 01:06
All our guidance is to work hard at getting line outs set up correcty - and then they run smoothly.
This one sounds like chaos.

I think if you let that go all the red team, all the spectators and (in fact) most of the black team will all think you announced that the QTI was off - and then let them take one. There is nothing in it for the ref in this circumstance.


I think there are two ways to return a ball fro touch
- a QTI which is unstrucutre, informal and quick
- a lineout which is strucutred, formal, and is properly set up

The OP is neither one nor the other, and doesn't sound like good game management.

I'd agree for the first lineout of the match to each team (so first red throw and first black throw) but after that I am not going to call back a team for employing a quick line out if they want to play up tempo rugby as long as we have 2 from each side and the ball is thrown straight.

Dickie E
03-06-19, 02:06
I'd agree for the first lineout of the match to each team (so first red throw and first black throw) but after that I am not going to call back a team for employing a quick line out if they want to play up tempo rugby as long as we have 2 from each side and the ball is thrown straight.

But Drift the law requirement is 3 from each side (thrower, opponent to thrower and 2 participating players). Why 2?

Drift
03-06-19, 04:06
But Drift the law requirement is 3 from each side (thrower, opponent to thrower and 2 participating players). Why 2?

2 players along the line of touch. For a quick lineout if there isn't a player in the channel then just play a quick FK advantage, ball gets the to backs is advantage over, no need to stop a team wanted to expose the defence for relaxing.

crossref
03-06-19, 05:06
I'd agree for the first lineout of the match to each team (so first red throw and first black throw) but after that I am not going to call back a team for employing a quick line out if they want to play up tempo rugby as long as we have 2 from each side and the ball is thrown straight.

An up tempo line out implies that we have a lineout. So great

Throwing the ball into a general melee, a split second after I have said the no QTI (the scenario in the OP ) is just chaos

crossref
03-06-19, 06:06
Some guidance on managing lineouts
https://m.facebook.com/groups/1545005635568610?view=permalink&id=2043067199095782

crossref
03-06-19, 06:06
What if Black captain says to you at the coin toss, "Occasionally we like to go quickly on our throw into the lineout Sir".
What is your reply?

I would say "thanks for the heads up" and I would make sure I kept myself alert and on my toes ready

What if a captain said to you "when the QTI is on, we are going to delay taking it indefinitely until the moment comes when you announce no QTI . And then when you say that and the oppo are offguard we will immediately throw it in and take them by surprise. It won't be a QTI it will be a QTLO"

Dickie E
03-06-19, 07:06
2 players along the line of touch. For a quick lineout if there isn't a player in the channel then just play a quick FK advantage, ball gets the to backs is advantage over, no need to stop a team wanted to expose the defence for relaxing.

so if lineout player knocks on or throw isn't straight, you're going to reward them with a FK?

Not Kurt Weaver
03-06-19, 14:06
How many players from the non-throwing team do you require to be in position to allow the quick throw in?

I was hoping Simon would answer this, but I'll give my answer without his input.

None.

If the ball and thrower are at the line of touch, the ball may be thrown at anytime.

SimonSmith
03-06-19, 16:06
2 players along the line of touch. For a quick lineout if there isn't a player in the channel then just play a quick FK advantage, ball gets the to backs is advantage over, no need to stop a team wanted to expose the defence for relaxing.

This.
The law is specific that two players from each team is all that is required to form a lineout.

The requirement for the dummy hooker isn't a prerequisite for a lineout to form or start, it's something that can be penalized for non compliance

crossref
04-06-19, 06:06
Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch.

I think the definition rules out a surprise lineout as described in the OP

didds
04-06-19, 09:06
time for a rugbyrefs.com poll?

Ian_Cook
05-06-19, 12:06
This.
The law is specific that two players from each team is all that is required to form a lineout.

The requirement for the dummy hooker isn't a prerequisite for a lineout to form or start, it's something that can be penalized for non compliance

Yep. For me, this is the nub.

If the thrower wants to throw when his opposing hooker is not in position, thats to his own disadvantage. The point of having the opposing hooker stand where he does is to prevent the non-throwing team from having a numerical advantage elsewhere.

Its more or less the same line of reasoning that applies if you have a line-out of, say six players from each team formed, and one of the throwing team suddenly retires, and the thrower throws in, you don't FK the non-throwing team for a numbers violation.


Note: I voted yes to all four scenarios. All you need is two players from each team at the LoT. Then, any player from the throwing team can throw the ball in along the LoT at least 5m and its game on.

crossref
05-06-19, 12:06
Well you could throw a ball into a general melee, catch it 5m out and score in the tramlines

The lack of an opponent in the tramlines would be very helpful to the throwing team in that plan

didds
05-06-19, 14:06
maybe the defenders should be a bit quicker at getting into place.

If the tramline player was there but the defending backline weren't covering the field width and the throwing team get their centre scoring under the posts through lack of a defender in a place to stop him, whose fault is that?

If a full oineout is sery up and lots of time given and oppo backline in place and both backlines back 10m and the tramline player isnt there (for whatever reason) do you stop the throw until the defnders have put somebody there after you've told them to?

Wales scored a try a couple of season or so ago in excetly this slow-setup-lineout-no-tramline-defender. I wrote an article on Dan's Rugby Coach Weekly at the time.

didds

Arabcheif
05-06-19, 14:06
Ok this has been interesting. In the World Rugby website, I can find no reference to a Quick Line Out, there is a QTI and a normal, bog standard, run of the mill lineout. So it would appear that the 2 players from each team may only prevent the QTI to be taken?? Then the throwing team would need to wait till the Lineout is properly formed.

There should be 2 options available the QTI, if that's not on then a properly formed lineout. Unless someone can show me the Law for the inbetween Quickly Taken Line Out.

I will add, I suppose it depends if a) The throwing team have declared their intent to have a lineout shortened to 2 participants and b) would you allow them to at the last second increase the number of participants if they've not declared.

Plus just reading the LO Law it does state that the non throwing team Must have a play in the 5m area. This suggests that if QTI is not available the the throwing team must wait till the lineout is actually set correctly.

The non-throwing team must have a player between the touchline and the five-metre line. The player stands two metres from the mark of touch on their team’s side of the lineout and two metres from the five-metre line. Sanction: Free-kick.

didds
05-06-19, 15:06
Ok this has been interesting. In the World Rugby website, I can find no reference to a Quick Line Out, there is a QTI and a normal, bog standard, run of the mill lineout. So it would appear that the 2 players from each team may only prevent the QTI to be taken?? Then the throwing team would need to wait till the Lineout is properly formed.

There should be 2 options available the QTI, if that's not on then a properly formed lineout. Unless someone can show me the Law for the inbetween Quickly Taken Line Out.

I will add, I suppose it depends if a) The throwing team have declared their intent to have a lineout shortened to 2 participants and b) would you allow them to at the last second increase the number of participants if they've not declared.

Plus just reading the LO Law it does state that the non throwing team Must have a play in the 5m area. This suggests that if QTI is not available the the throwing team must wait till the lineout is actually set correctly.

The non-throwing team must have a player between the touchline and the five-metre line. The player stands two metres from the mark of touch on their team’s side of the lineout and two metres from the five-metre line. Sanction: Free-kick.

No. It just means that if the non throwing team does NOT have a player in the tramlines they are liable to sanction. It does not mean the lineout cannot happen until there is one.



didds

Arabcheif
05-06-19, 16:06
Yes, provided the line out is correctly formed. This to me isn't a correctly formed line out unless the throwing team has stated that they want to shorten the LO to 2 participants. As a player and a ref, I'd work with a full LO unless advised by the throwing team that there was a change. If they've siad the LO was to be shortened to 2 Players then I may allow the LO. But again, it doesn't sit well as one sides players will no doubt be in an offside position.

EG - Black have kicked the ball into touch, QUI not on. 2 players from each side arrive (+thrower). Red declare they want the shortened LO to specify that there is 2 participant. They then take the throw, most of their team and the Black's players will be on their way up to Mark, therefore they all may be offside, def the throwing teams players as they're in front of the player who is playing/has last played the ball. There probably also in the way of the defenders who will no doubt be trying to tackle.

crossref
05-06-19, 17:06
Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch.

I don't think you can have a surprise lineout , any more than you can have a surprise scrum or a surprise restart kick

Even for those of you who think a surprise lineout is technically possible, I would suggest it's not good game management ... You won't he thanked for it

beckett50
05-06-19, 19:06
The 'old' Law book - bearing in mind we are repeatedly told there are "No new Laws" - made reference to players approaching the line out. It stated that any player approaching the line out was deemed to be a participating player, and so this always threw the whole QTI argument into somewhat of a puritanical debate.

Plus ca change :)

thepercy
05-06-19, 19:06
Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch.

I don't think you can have a surprise lineout , any more than you can have a surprise scrum or a surprise restart kick

Even for those of you who think a surprise lineout is technically possible, I would suggest it's not good game management ... You won't he thanked for it

Would you make the kicking team wait for the opposition to get ready at a restart after a score if they were all behind the 10-meter line? At a 22DO?

thepercy
05-06-19, 19:06
18.14
Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer) in the lineout then the throwing team.

This seems to imply that you CAN throw the ball into a lineout as soon as it is formed. No need to wait for the oppo to organize, you just lose out the "numbers" sanction if you do.

Dickie E
05-06-19, 19:06
No. It just means that if the non throwing team does NOT have a player in the tramlines they are liable to sanction. It does not mean the lineout cannot happen until there is one.



didds

Blue hooker sees 2 + 2 and no Red opponent. Throws ball straight to half back.

Peep. "Throw not straight. But first offence no Red player in tram lines. FK to Blue".

Is that how you're going to roll?

crossref
05-06-19, 20:06
Would you make the kicking team wait for the opposition to get ready at a restart after a score if they were all behind the 10-meter line? At a 22DO?

I would make the kicking team wait until the receiving team were all behind the 10m line . As per the Laws

didds
05-06-19, 22:06
Blue hooker sees 2 + 2 and no Red opponent. Throws ball straight to half back.

Peep. "Throw not straight. But first offence no Red player in tram lines. FK to Blue".

Is that how you're going to roll?

*shrug*.

Not straight, options clearly.

Fr4ankly the sanctionb for no tramlone player seems a bit strange TBH. Yes defenders may have an extra backline defender. But jnopw they've nopbody defensing the tramline corridor.

however I appreciate that is what the law says, whatever.

Its still options for not straight for me.

didds

Arabcheif
06-06-19, 09:06
But the throwing team haven't declared they're having a shortened LO. Would you ping the non-throwing team for having too many players if they had 3 players and the throwing team only had 2? Unless they state otherwise, I'll make them wait every time for the LO to be properly formed. Unless they take a QTI, but this isn't permissible under these circumstances.

SimonSmith
06-06-19, 15:06
But the throwing team haven't declared they're having a shortened LO. Would you ping the non-throwing team for having too many players if they had 3 players and the throwing team only had 2? Unless they state otherwise, I'll make them wait every time for the LO to be properly formed. Unless they take a QTI, but this isn't permissible under these circumstances.

This is covered in Law 18.14:

Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team. Sanction: Free-kick.

didds
06-06-19, 16:06
so there you have it. the law makers have rather made it clear that it is possible to throw the ball in "quickly" while the LO is being "put together".


didds

crossref
06-06-19, 16:06
But read the definition of a line out
It's a set piece.
The shortcut is a QTI

thepercy
06-06-19, 16:06
I would make the kicking team wait until the receiving team were all behind the 10m line . As per the Laws

So as soon as the requirements are met, you would allow them to kick. But not by surprise? There is no such requirements for 22DOs so those could be done as quickly as the kicking team like?

thepercy
06-06-19, 17:06
But the throwing team haven't declared they're having a shortened LO. Would you ping the non-throwing team for having too many players if they had 3 players and the throwing team only had 2? Unless they state otherwise, I'll make them wait every time for the LO to be properly formed. Unless they take a QTI, but this isn't permissible under these circumstances.

That's how I would have done it before, and get the numbers right. But now we have 18.14 that says the non throwing team is not liable to sanction for "numbers" if the throwing team throws in as soon as the LO is formed.

crossref
06-06-19, 17:06
So as soon as the requirements are met, you would allow them to kick. But not by surprise? There is no such requirements for 22DOs so those could be done as quickly as the kicking team like?

Correct

For a restart everyone has to be in position

For a 22m DO they don't (but players caught in front of the kicker are offside in general play, as for any kick)

But that's standard stuff right, surely you don't disagree

OB..
06-06-19, 17:06
For a restart everyone has to be in position


12.5 When the ball is kicked:

Team-mates of the kicker must be behind the ball. Sanction: Scrum.
Opposition players must be on or behind the 10-metre line.



That is a change from the previous law book, which failed to deal with restart kicks properly.

The Fat
07-06-19, 00:06
Too many threads on this same topic.
Just saying.

SimonSmith
07-06-19, 01:06
Correct

For a restart everyone has to be in position

For a 22m DO they don't (but players caught in front of the kicker are offside in general play, as for any kick)

But that's standard stuff right, surely you don't disagree
No. Just...no.
The lineout law makes that clear.

They want a dummy hooker. But a lineout can proceed without one, subject to sanction.
They want numbers to match (or defenders be less). But the law I cited makes it clear that the lineout can proceed if the numbers mismatch.

Please stop making things up. You are at odds with the law.

Ian_Cook
07-06-19, 01:06
Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch.

I don't think you can have a surprise lineout , any more than you can have a surprise scrum or a surprise restart kick

Even for those of you who think a surprise lineout is technically possible, I would suggest it's not good game management ... You won't he thanked for it

If there are two players from each team at the LoT, and the non-throwing team are surprised when the throwing team throw the ball in, then they need to do a few things

1. Read the Law book.
2. Get better coaching.
3. Learn what "situational awareness" means.
4. Wake up.
5. Get their collective arses into gear

The Fat
07-06-19, 02:06
Yes, provided the line out is correctly formed. This to me isn't a correctly formed line out unless the throwing team has stated that they want to shorten the LO to 2 participants. As a player and a ref, I'd work with a full LO unless advised by the throwing team that there was a change. If they've siad the LO was to be shortened to 2 Players then I may allow the LO. But again, it doesn't sit well as one sides players will no doubt be in an offside position.

EG - Black have kicked the ball into touch, QUI not on. 2 players from each side arrive (+thrower). Red declare they want the shortened LO to specify that there is 2 participant. They then take the throw, most of their team and the Black's players will be on their way up to Mark, therefore they all may be offside, def the throwing teams players as they're in front of the player who is playing/has last played the ball. There probably also in the way of the defenders who will no doubt be trying to tackle.

Teams nominating how many players they are putting in the lineout is a Northern Hemisphere thing. Down under, we have learned to count to seven.
The throwing team can choose to throw into the lineout without waiting for the opposition to drop players out to match.
Why are some of you intent on allowing the non-throwing team to dictate how the lineout is taken?

Dickie E
07-06-19, 03:06
*shrug*.

Not straight, options clearly.

Fr4ankly the sanctionb for no tramlone player seems a bit strange TBH. Yes defenders may have an extra backline defender. But jnopw they've nopbody defensing the tramline corridor.

however I appreciate that is what the law says, whatever.

Its still options for not straight for me.

didds

so what would you tell your assessor if he/she picked you up on it?

"yeah, I know its a law but seems a bit strange to me so I ignore it"

Are there any other "strange" laws that you ignore?

crossref
07-06-19, 06:06
Teams nominating how many players they are putting in the lineout is a Northern Hemisphere thing. Down under, we have learned to count to seven.
The throwing team can choose to throw into the lineout without waiting for the opposition to drop players out to match.
?

Actually that has changed here since the Laws changed in 2018
.
Previously it was in the Law that the throwing team had to allow time for the non throwing team to match numbers.

But in 2018 they took that law away.

There wasn't an abrupt change in how it is played and reffed , but there has been a gradual one and we are now much closer to your approach .. but not there yet, teams still commonly announce , even though they may no longer be made to...

crossref
07-06-19, 06:06
No. Just...no.
The lineout law makes that clear.

They want a dummy hooker. But a lineout can proceed without one, subject to sanction.
They want numbers to match (or defenders be less). But the law I cited makes it clear that the lineout can proceed if the numbers mismatch.

Please stop making things up. You are at odds with the law.

Well, you brought up restart kicks and drop outs
But they are different in law

The question is : is a lineout more like a restart kick , where both teams have to be in position

Or is a lineout more like a 22m dropout where they don't need to be in position ?

I am paying attention to the definition, a lineout is a SET piece , where two lines form waiting for the ball

So a lineout is more like a restart kick, teams in position
Whereas the QTI is like a 22m do , not

Indeed this the whole point of the QTI .. it's the way to avoid the set piece lineout

Jz558
07-06-19, 08:06
Actually that has changed here since the Laws changed in 2018
.
Previously it was in the Law that the throwing team had to allow time for the non throwing team to match numbers.

But in 2018 they took that law away.

There wasn't an abrupt change in how it is played and reffed , but there has been a gradual one and we are now much closer to your approach .. but not there yet, teams still commonly announce , even though they may no longer be made to...


One of the things that irritated me when I started reffing was that as soon as the ball crossed the touch line non-throwing teams started shouting for numbers in the line. I actually now include it in my PMB and remind teams that the throwing side are not obligated to tell you, you need to count. Equally though I am not sympathetic to the 8/9 man conference by the throing side 5m from the line of touch which ends when 3 players move rapidly into the line with the remainder retiring and then the throw being taken before it is obvious how many they are putting into the line.

crossref
07-06-19, 09:06
But what goes around comes around .. in general I find that both teams here still prefer to keep the other informed .. in return for it working both ways of course

didds
07-06-19, 10:06
12.5 When the ball is kicked:

Team-mates of the kicker must be behind the ball. Sanction: Scrum.
Opposition players must be on or behind the 10-metre line.



That is a change from the previous law book, which failed to deal with restart kicks properly.

no sanction for a kick taken with kicking team players all behind the ball but oppo notn all behind the 10m line then?

Presumably a re-taken kick if that is the case?

didds

didds
07-06-19, 11:06
so what would you tell your assessor if he/she picked you up on it?

"yeah, I know its a law but seems a bit strange to me so I ignore it"

Are there any other "strange" laws that you ignore?

I'm not ignoring them.

I'm saying it seems odd that the law insists on not exposing a tactical error.

didds

Arabcheif
07-06-19, 11:06
Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team. Sanction: Free-kick.


so there you have it. the law makers have rather made it clear that it is possible to throw the ball in "quickly" while the LO is being "put together".

No it doesn't. The LO isn't "Formed," so the throw can't be taken quickly. The 2 player min requirement is for a formed LO. Unless they tell me at least, I'll expect them to have a full LO. As a player I'd expect it too.


didds

Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team. Sanction: Free-kick.

thepercy
07-06-19, 16:06
Correct

For a restart everyone has to be in position

For a 22m DO they don't (but players caught in front of the kicker are offside in general play, as for any kick)

But that's standard stuff right, surely you don't disagree

You said you wouldn't allow "surprise restart kicks" in your argument that you shouldn't be allowed to throw in as soon as the LO is formed. This argument does not hold up, and I disagree with you on both counts. I would not require the kicking team or the throwing in team to wait for "everyone to be in position", just what's required by law, at a restart kick after a score for the players to all be past their 10 m line (not "in position"). At a 22DO (restart kick after a touchdown) I wouldn't make the kicking team wait for their opponents to get in position at all. At a LO, they need to wait for there to be 2 x 2 to throw in, but need not wait for everyone to be in position.

thepercy
07-06-19, 16:06
12.5 When the ball is kicked:

Team-mates of the kicker must be behind the ball. Sanction: Scrum.
Opposition players must be on or behind the 10-metre line.



That is a change from the previous law book, which failed to deal with restart kicks properly.

For 22DO restart kicks 12.18 would apply and the kickers teammates could be in front if they retire and don't interfere with play.

thepercy
07-06-19, 16:06
Well, you brought up restart kicks and drop outs
But they are different in law

The question is : is a lineout more like a restart kick , where both teams have to be in position

Or is a lineout more like a 22m dropout where they don't need to be in position ?

I am paying attention to the definition, a lineout is a SET piece , where two lines form waiting for the ball

So a lineout is more like a restart kick, teams in position
Whereas the QTI is like a 22m do , not

Indeed this the whole point of the QTI .. it's the way to avoid the set piece lineout

22DO is a restart kick, maybe that's where some confusion is coming from, your misuse of defined law terms?

Arabcheif
07-06-19, 17:06
For restart kick there is no set required position, just merely to be outside the 22m (for 22m DO) or behind the 10m line. So behind the 10m line/or outside the 22m line anywhere is the "correct set position." So the kick can go ahead. If there are players inside the 22, that don't interfere with the kick until they get out the 22 I'm happy for them to play.

crossref
07-06-19, 23:06
22DO is a restart kick, maybe that's where some confusion is coming from, your misuse of defined law terms?

I think you know perfectly well what I meant