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Location of teammates for quick-tap

J

jeremy

Member
Is this law ever really applied to quick-taps?

20.10 Other than the placer at a place-kick, the kicker’s team must remain behind the ball until it has been kicked. Sanction: Scrum.

There doesn't seem to be an exception for quick-taps, yet we see this situation all the time, especially after rucks & scrums.
 
the Law for dropouts says

12.19 The team-mates of the kicker must be behind the ball when it is kicked. Those who are in front of the ball when it is kicked may be sanctioned unless they retire and do not interfere with play until they are put onside by the actions of a team-mate. Sanction:Scrum.

even though the law book doesn't say so, the same logic is applied for quick tap PKs. ( IIRC, the law book did used to have similar text for quick taps PKs (?), did it get lost in 2017?)
 
This might help:
2017 Law Book "Law 21.4 (j)
Kick taken quickly. If the penalty or free kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s
team are still in front of the ball, they are not penalised for being offside. However, they
must retire immediately. They must not stop retiring until they are onside. They must not
take part in the game until they are onside. This applies to all players of that team, whether
they are inside or outside the playing area.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately when "clarifying & Simplifying" the law book in 2018 this was missed out. Now whether you take WR at its word "there are no changes to Law in the re-write" is up to you. I would apply the above as logical, in line with the no change policy AND the fact that it applies to Free Kicks.
 
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Q: are they interfering with play?
Q: are they seeking to gain a benefit from it?

a.k.a. is it material?
 
Doesn’t offside apply here? Quick-tap taken and you’re an attacker in front of your kicker then you need to hold back until put onside, and to @didds point, if not material then play on.
 
Volun-selected said:
Doesn’t offside apply here? Quick-tap taken and you’re an attacker in front of your kicker then you need to hold back until put onside, and to @didds point, if not material then play on.
Click to expand...
It's not quite offside , as it's not illegal in itself to be in an offside position (only illegal if you interfere or fail to retreat etc) but it IS illegal in itself to be in from of a PK.

But yes we ignore that , and treat it like run of the mill offside
 
didds said:
Q: are they interfering with play?
Q: are they seeking to gain a benefit from it?

a.k.a. is it material?
Click to expand...

Arguably, yes, yes and yes: the kicker being required to wait until (or position himself such that) all his teammates are behind him makes this *always* material, regardless of what those teammates themselves do.
 
jeremy said:
Arguably, yes, yes and yes: the kicker being required to wait until (or position himself such that) all his teammates are behind him makes this *always* material, regardless of what those teammates themselves do.
Click to expand...
So you'd not permit a tap n go near the left touchline if a winger on the right touchline was 1m in front?
 
jeremy said:
I'd follow standard practice and ignore law 20.10 like everybody else. ;^)
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So you'd ignore your own assertion that

"the kicker being required to wait until (or position himself such that) all his teammates are behind him makes this *always* material" ?

So it's "always" material except when you decide that doesn't work?
 
didds said:
So you'd ignore your own assertion that

"the kicker being required to wait until (or position himself such that) all his teammates are behind him makes this *always* material" ?

So it's "always" material except when you decide that doesn't work?
Click to expand...
Well i'd not ignore but would apply, by logic:

2017 Law Book "Law 21.4 (j)
Kick taken quickly. If the penalty or free kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s
team are still in front of the ball, they are not penalised for being offside. However, they
must retire immediately. They must not stop retiring until they are onside. They must not
take part in the game until they are onside. This applies to all players of that team, whether
they are inside or outside the playing area.
 
Marc Wakeham said:
Well i'd not ignore but would apply, by logic:

2017 Law Book "Law 21.4 (j)
Kick taken quickly. If the penalty or free kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s
team are still in front of the ball, they are not penalised for being offside. However, they
must retire immediately. They must not stop retiring until they are onside. They must not
take part in the game until they are onside. This applies to all players of that team, whether
they are inside or outside the playing area.
Click to expand...
ah - sorry, got my people mixed up. I'm sure you would Marc.
It was Jeremy in #8 and #10 that first said this was always material then that he'd ignore it. Im just wondering how he got from his position in #8 to that of #10.
 
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didds said:
Im just wondering how he got from his position in #8 to that of #10.
Click to expand...

I got there by switching modes from hyperbolic to flippant.

Of course you made a fair point about materiality.
But I guess my question is, what is material with respect to 20.10 as opposed to, for example, the offside laws?

Because the entire effect of 20.10 (if it were actually applied) is to slow down the kicking side.
Unlike offside, where an offside player's effect on the game can be ignored if they make sure not to affect play.
But the kicker taking the kick with a teammate in front has instantly had an effect on the game by taking the kick earlier than allowed.

crossref said:
It's not quite offside , as it's not illegal in itself to be in an offside position (only illegal if you interfere or fail to retreat etc) but it IS illegal in itself to be in from of a PK.

But yes we ignore that , and treat it like run of the mill offside
Click to expand...

Run of the mill, except that - in accordance with the 2017 21.4 quoted by Marc, and effectively in accordance with the current 20.10 - it's sanctioned with a Scrum rather than a PK?
Or sanctioned with a PK?
 
I agree with Marc's post #3.
A further clue is the use of the word "remain" in 20.10 which suggests that this law relates to kick chase scenarios.
Its all a bit clumsy though
 
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