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Lood De Jager permanent red card vs France/Franco Mostert permanent red card vs Italy

I disagree: Plumtree has his elbow bent and palm forward, the other three cases had the palm backward. Arm rotation is a key sign.

I agree James Ryan should have been a straight red for consistency, though.
since we're playing the screengrab game, here is exhibit C of the reverse view which is the only one that has unobstructed view of the right arm. Palm orientation looks great if the shoulder has already connected directly with the head?

1763980070756.png





This whole thread is hilarious. It just seems to be a whinge around how unfair referees/officials are toward South Africa.

I was a player for a lot longer than I have ever been reffing and I know what is a no-arms tackle and what is an attempt at a wrap. Plumtree was a genuine tackle attempt, but too high. Completely different to the thuggish shoulder charges of de Jager and Mostert.

De Jager, Mostert and Feinberg.M were not. Two correct decisions and one incorrect on the field. For me yellow would suffice for the Feinberg-M offence, so considering the sanction was penalty only, that is not a huge error. Risk of taking further flak, I thought Carley had a very good game overall.
At the risk or going around in circles again, you are aware that the thuggish (your words) Mostert straight red was downgraded to a yellow? So in your mind they got that wrong and that was never a tackle attempt?
 
In my mind they are DANGEROUS. That's it.

People are scrabbling to find reasons not to sanction foul play, rather than just focussing on what we should be, PLAYER SAEFTY.

Given it has taken four pages to deconstruct and we apparently still cannot decide, there is enough in the balance of probabilities to support assertion of foul play and appropriate sanction to remove players who do not learn.

If those sanctions are not adapted to by the team then the team will also suffer the consequences because we should be focussed on player safety, not protecting the showcase.
 
At the risk or going around in circles again, you are aware that the thuggish (your words) Mostert straight red was downgraded to a yellow? So in your mind they got that wrong and that was never a tackle attempt?

It was (correctly) downgraded because the initial contact was not to the head, as per the framework. Not because it wasn't a shoulder charge; they didn't get anything right or wrong in that regard.
 
At the risk or going around in circles again, you are aware that the thuggish (your words) Mostert straight red was downgraded to a yellow? So in your mind they got that wrong and that was never a tackle attempt?
isn’t this whole thread about going around in a circle? 😂
By “they", you mean the committee, right? They are two separate questions, disguised as one - cheeky 😊|

So no, I believe they got it right for the reason that Rich_NL notes above. However I do believe that it was never a tackle attempt.
 
But the history of the game is to play low as a ball carrier, drive forward with a low cross section forcing tackles to be low or ineffective. That's a problem the defenders need to get their heads around.

We have taken competition from scrums and line outs and now we want to eradicate good driving, forward play.

I despair.
And this is why better minds than mine need to look at this. Half the issue is that a lot of the what we discuss is a product of the elite game, and those pro players are are so far removed from the “all shapes and sizes” we still just about see at grass roots. What we’re seeing more and more is there are 2 types of player - heavy and powerful or heavy and fast, and when it goes wrong for them it can be a mess. (I don’t think England’s Curry’s late tackle on Italy’s Mallía was more than that but the raw physics of the collision was enough to flatten the player and force a retirement.)

The scrum is a mess - this is no criticism of SA, but they often have such an advantage (weight, power, technique, depth of squad, whatever…) that they can force penalty after penalty. And when you have that edge why would you not use it? Even down in the lower leagues we will see mismatches in skill and power - it’s just the difference doesn’t seem as stark and I haven’t got more than 40-150 people watching when I end up with a score more akin to a cricket match.

Whither the scum? Do we tweak the edges - enforce straight feeds etc. - or do we need something more fundamental?

Same with lineouts - maybe a simple enforcement of all players need to be in the lineout when the ball comes in rather then already forming the maul, or other laws?

The tackle is always going to be the tough one. I think the French are or have enforced a rule outside the elite level to ban dropping height into a tackle. I know early on there was some grumbling but the feedback was that it encouraged players to hit spaces not faces an offload earlier which created more flowing game. Would be interesting to know if that is still the case and what the upshot was in the quality of the game.

I guess if i knew a sure fire way to cut that gordian knot, then I’d be a much richer man than i am now.
 
And this is why better minds than mine need to look at this. Half the issue is that a lot of the what we discuss is a product of the elite game, and those pro players are are so far removed from the “all shapes and sizes” we still just about see at grass roots. What we’re seeing more and more is there are 2 types of player - heavy and powerful or heavy and fast, and when it goes wrong for them it can be a mess. (I don’t think England’s Curry’s late tackle on Italy’s Mallía was more than that but the raw physics of the collision was enough to flatten the player and force a retirement.)

The scrum is a mess - this is no criticism of SA, but they often have such an advantage (weight, power, technique, depth of squad, whatever…) that they can force penalty after penalty. And when you have that edge why would you not use it? Even down in the lower leagues we will see mismatches in skill and power - it’s just the difference doesn’t seem as stark and I haven’t got more than 40-150 people watching when I end up with a score more akin to a cricket match.

Whither the scum? Do we tweak the edges - enforce straight feeds etc. - or do we need something more fundamental?

Same with lineouts - maybe a simple enforcement of all players need to be in the lineout when the ball comes in rather then already forming the maul, or other laws?

The tackle is always going to be the tough one. I think the French are or have enforced a rule outside the elite level to ban dropping height into a tackle. I know early on there was some grumbling but the feedback was that it encouraged players to hit spaces not faces an offload earlier which created more flowing game. Would be interesting to know if that is still the case and what the upshot was in the quality of the game.

I guess if i knew a sure fire way to cut that gordian knot, then I’d be a much richer man than i am now.
I am not sure the SA has superior technique only pure power. But when the skill of hooking has been consigned to the way back machine then this weight advantage is fully exploited.

Yes also with the line outs I think it was highlighted one game over the weekend where the hooker took 10 adjusting steps before throwing the ball. I don't want to see the same mess that we have at scrums with refs calling tempo but give them the mark for the line.

Count to 15.

Line should be formed and ball thrown in, if not then peep.

If I wanted to watch dancing I would get tickets for the ball room at Blackpool. Get on with the game FFS.

Play quick, tire the fatties out, get them tracking backwards and sideways, get them flat footed in defence, get a runner turning them inside out, get them offside, because they're wretching from the extreme strain the lungs and heart are being put under.

Can't keep up lose some weight.

If they want big powerful props then expect to pay the penalty when they are left blowing. I've played with a prop who could lift the scrum machine, truly impressive, but he walked around the park. There is always a drop off because aerobic fitness and stamina is a trade off and we get a 40 min prop.

SA changed their front row before half time and one came back on at 73 mins, due to a "neck injury"! You could see against Ireland that SA forwards were visibly flagging, but Ireland didn't spot or exploit this, the outside half was not aware enough and even when it got to the wingers they were too slow.

I get the point about hitting spaces and pass before contact has to be the best way to keep possession and keep momentum see Argentina yesterday. But at times when the ball is bobbling and dirty someone has to just tidy it and drive back in, low and hard, get back towards the gain line

I feel inhibiting number of replacements is key to rebalancing all this but all other Laws should be applied.

Materiality is far too variable.
 

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Common sense prevails.


(Noted that the Etzebeth Red would not have been effected, which is on point)
The pedant in me notes have they not defined “thuggery”.

The article mentions 9.12 which is a catch-all, and although some acts are pretty clear - chin your oppo, get a good stamp in, etc. - that still leaves a lot in the “I’ll know it when I see it” bucket.

Still, I’m sure the experts in Law - aka commentators - will be able to tell us precisely when this interpretation is or isn’t correct.
 
The pedant in me notes have they not defined “thuggery”.

The article mentions 9.12 which is a catch-all, and although some acts are pretty clear - chin your oppo, get a good stamp in, etc. - that still leaves a lot in the “I’ll know it when I see it” bucket.

Still, I’m sure the experts in Law - aka commentators - will be able to tell us precisely when this interpretation is or isn’t correct.

i suppose once they define it, then anything that fits the "you'll know it when you see it" bracket that isnt in that definition then cannot be penalised under it - because its isnt defined thuggery.
 
i suppose once they define it, then anything that fits the "you'll know it when you see it" bracket that isnt in that definition then cannot be penalised under it - because its isnt defined thuggery.
A phrase I heard is "non-rugby" offences
Ie things that would be wrong in any sport or on the street (biting thumping etc), and where you don't need to read the Law book to know they are wrong

Which might be a bit better phrase than "thuggery".
A less emotive phrase, for certain
 
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