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Offside line for scrum half at scrum

thepercy said:
Where does it say if scrums are uncontested that there can be no #8 pick up? Is there a law reference for that, or is it a local competition rule?
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As I posted "At our community level uncontested scrums = no pick up by the "no 8". Sides often out the 9 at 8 and use the big 8 as as the 9."

I only refer to WRU variations as I am not aware of the variations of other unions
 
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As long as Welsh refs who stray over the border remember that the variation does not apply.
And visiting English teams are warned before the game, and again when scrums go uncontested, there is nothing wrong with a local variation.
 
Marc Wakeham said:
No it is not!

It is a variation adopted by the WRU ( for the community game). Whether this is a good or bad thing is another matter. However it is not an "old canard" it is FACT.
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In England, it was London. I was there when it was An Issue.
 
SimonSmith said:
In England, it was London. I was there when it was An Issue.
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I am confused.. what do you think was London? A London opinion that #8 can pick up or a London opinion that the #8 can't ?

So far as I know there is no official LSRFUR opinion either way. Not that I think one is needed, #8 pick ups in general are allowed, encouraged even by the most recent law change, and nothing in the laws says that it's any different when scrums are uncontested
 
Camquin said:
As long as Welsh refs who stray over the border remember that the variation does not apply.
And visiting English teams are warned before the game, and again when scrums go uncontested, there is nothing wrong with a local variation.
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Sides should always check the Laws and variation applying cross-border. As should refs. We still get ome of our local teams asking. They know but tey think they will "try sir out"
 
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SimonSmith said:
In England, it was London. I was there when it was An Issue.
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This was definitely a thing in my London Society catchment. I played all my rugby under LSRFUR and also referee for them when I am in the UK. As a player, there was a time when we were told by the referee that there was no no.8 pick up from contested scrums. Later one this was myth was buster and got rid of, but a good few years later. By that point the rumour had spread.
As a referee for the LSRFUR I still get asked on a frequent or so basis if it is OK to pick up from 8 on uncontested. So the thought is still out there but starting to wane.

Talking to the committee and longer in the tooth members of my region, it was never a directive. May have started with one confused ref and spread. All in the same vein as "you got to let them up" which you would frequently here shouted on a pitch on a Saturday, and referees would ping it incorrectly. (yes, not just for diving on the player on the floor but for legitimately competing for the ball)
 
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It is definitely a consistency issue. I know (because the players tell me) that opinion continues to vary from ref to ref.

But I am not aware of any official LSRFUR opinion / ruling / directive. On reflection perhaps we could do with one.
 
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It may be a case of whether you believe laws are there to allow things/actions or disallow them. There is nothing in direct law to prevent a No8 pick up. The whole focus of and reasoning behind uncontested scrums is around safety in the front row. Once that criteria has been met why not permit scrums to continue as normal? Unless of course it then becomes a matter of an unfair advantage to one side or the other, which becomes an almost unanswerable question.
 
Balones said:
It may be a case of whether you believe laws are there to allow things/actions or disallow them. There is nothing in direct law to prevent a No8 pick up. The whole focus of and reasoning behind uncontested scrums is around safety in the front row. Once that criteria has been met why not permit scrums to continue as normal? Unless of course it then becomes a matter of an unfair advantage to one side or the other, which becomes an almost unanswerable question.
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And when in England I'd allow it. But here I will be marked down if I allow it.
 
Its definitely a thing. I always announce it , first time we go uncontested
.. normal binding
.. no pushing
.. back row stay bound until ball is out
.. #8 CAN pick up
 
DocP said:
This was definitely a thing in my London Society catchment. I played all my rugby under LSRFUR and also referee for them when I am in the UK. As a player, there was a time when we were told by the referee that there was no no.8 pick up from contested scrums. Later one this was myth was buster and got rid of, but a good few years later. By that point the rumour had spread.
As a referee for the LSRFUR I still get asked on a frequent or so basis if it is OK to pick up from 8 on uncontested. So the thought is still out there but starting to wane.

Talking to the committee and longer in the tooth members of my region, it was never a directive. May have started with one confused ref and spread. All in the same vein as "you got to let them up" which you would frequently here shouted on a pitch on a Saturday, and referees would ping it incorrectly. (yes, not just for diving on the player on the floor but for legitimately competing for the ball)
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^^ this.
 
Balones said:
Ospreys v Dragons - uncontested scrums - ref confirms that 8 can pick. Or is it just allowed in the regional game?
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Regional game is part of URC, Europen Rugby etc. Such games are played under different juristiction. Therefore, WRU " Bye Laws" can't apply.
 
IMHO the SH must stay close to the scrum or retire 5m.

At the start of this season I had this discussion about this with some other referees.

They thought the new laws meant "the scrum half can stay level with the hindmost foot, but go several meters across the pitch and stand facing the opposition No. 10".

What the law says:
Law 19.30
.
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
Sanction:Penalty.
.

My interpretation of 19:30 (b) is that it features the term "at that team's hindmost foot", with my emphasis on the word "at". If the SH moves several meters across the pitch they can be level with the back foot, but they are not "at" it.

It has not yet happened this season, but if it does I'll manage things to stop the SH moving across the pitch.
 
Martin Doughty said:
IMHO the SH must stay close to the scrum or retire 5m.

At the start of this season I had this discussion about this with some other referees.

They thought the new laws meant "the scrum half can stay level with the hindmost foot, but go several meters across the pitch and stand facing the opposition No. 10".

What the law says:
Law 19.30
.
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
Sanction:Penalty.
.

My interpretation of 19:30 (b) is that it features the term "at that team's hindmost foot", with my emphasis on the word "at". If the SH moves several meters across the pitch they can be level with the back foot, but they are not "at" it.

It has not yet happened this season, but if it does I'll manage things to stop the SH moving across the pitch.
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It's a point ON the offside line which is at the hindmost foot..
 
Martin Doughty said:
IMHO the SH must stay close to the scrum or retire 5m.

At the start of this season I had this discussion about this with some other referees.

They thought the new laws meant "the scrum half can stay level with the hindmost foot, but go several meters across the pitch and stand facing the opposition No. 10".

What the law says:
Law 19.30
.
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
Sanction:Penalty.
.

My interpretation of 19:30 (b) is that it features the term "at that team's hindmost foot", with my emphasis on the word "at". If the SH moves several meters across the pitch they can be level with the back foot, but they are not "at" it.

It has not yet happened this season, but if it does I'll manage things to stop the SH moving across the pitch.
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It’s accepted that the SH can be anywhere laterally on the offside line in line with the hindmost foot, and with recent law changes that they cannot advance beyond the center of the tunnel, it can be more useful tactically for the SH to position opposite the opposing 10/12 with that extra 5m start.

What they do have to do is make a decision. Once the ball leaves the attacking SH’s hands, the defending SH has to either stay by the tunnel (even if it wheels), retire to the offside line 5m back with the rest of the team, or take up a position anywhere laterally on the offside line at the hindmost foot of the scrum.

There is a video of Wayne Barnes explaining this, and I know at least in the US the game management guidelines call this out explicitly as:
The defensive scrumhalf can either take up a position on the offside line, 5m from the hindmost point, or start at the put-in side next to the opposition scrumhalf. After the ball is put in, they may either:
  1. Remain near to the scrum and move no further than the center line of the tunnel (if the scrum wheels the player can move with the tunnel), or
  2. They retire to behind the last-foot offside line of the scrum and may move laterally across the field.
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and for full clarity that is anywhere the entire widtrh of the field in line with the lastb foot offide line - correct ??? ie both the open and blind side ?
 
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