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Penalty kick back, or scrum up?

R

RugbyPlayer3


Referees in Canada
Hello,

i'm new here and have come to this site for 1 soul purpose, for someone to answer this question for me.

SO! Lets get to it;

Blue #10 kicks the ball down field, Blue #12 is offside (ahead of the kicker before it was kicked). Yellow #15 catches it 30metres up-field and is tackled by Blue #12. Clearly the blue #12 was offside, now; Yellow has two options, but i do not know these options. Is it a full penalty kick from where Blue #12 was ahead of the Blue #12 or a scrum from where Blue #12 tackled Yellow #15? Ie; playing advantage?

Thanks,

Cheers
 
This is offside under the 10 metre Law, the parts of which that relate to your question are...

[LAWS]11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW
(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c) When a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law charges an opponent waiting to catch
the ball, the referee blows the whistle at once and the offside player is penalised. Delay may
prove dangerous to the opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick
[/LAWS]

Now is where the Law gets tricky because it is very poorly written

[LAWS](f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not ‘waiting to play the ball’ and the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.
Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.[/LAWS]

There is a separate Law for offside in General Play (Law 11.1) so this sanction seems to imply that it doesn't apply to offside under the 10m Law. However, it is the only place in Law 11.4 that mentions the place of infringement (other than 11.4 (g) which only applies if more than one player is offside.)

For this reason, I believe that this sanction applies to both Offside in General play and Offside Under the 10m Law.

That being the case, in your question, its the other way around. Yellow can choose between a PK where Blue 12 tackled Yellow 15, or a scrum where Blue 10 kicked the ball. Yellow would feed the scrum.

The referee also could PK Blue 12 at the point where he was offside ahead of Blue 10's kick.
 
If Blue 12 is within 10m of where the ball will land, then he needs to start retreating immediately.

If he fails to do this (which is what I think happened in your scenario) then he is offside under the 10m law.

It is a penalty at the place of infringement, or a scrum where the ball was last played.

The place of infringement is where Blue 12 failed to retreat from (so where he was standing when the ball was kicked).
The scrum is where it was kicked from by Blue 10.
 
Is it a full penalty kick from where Blue #12 was ahead of the Blue #10
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Yes if open play - or from where he failed to retreat if under 10m Law.

or a scrum from where Blue #12 tackled Yellow #15?
Click to expand...

No

The scrum would be back upfield where Blue 10 kicked the ball (ie the place where Blue last played the ball)


Ie; playing advantage
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Advantage is irrelevant. In that if no advantage comes you offer the tellow captain the choice of what he wants - PK at place of offence, or scrum back where the opposition last played the ball.

His choice, not the refs; and nothing to do with advantage.
 
okay, so i saw it again in a game i was spectating. This time it was a ruck, the scrumhalf passed it to the fly half who kicked it 30meters downfield. The flanker (whom was in the ruck, ahead of the kick) chases down the kick and plays the ball (clearly not onside).. Would they then have a choice of scrum where the Flanker picked up the ball?
 
RugbyPlayer3 said:
okay, so i saw it again in a game i was spectating. This time it was a ruck, the scrumhalf passed it to the fly half who kicked it 30meters downfield. The flanker (whom was in the ruck, ahead of the kick) chases down the kick and plays the ball (clearly not onside).. Would they then have a choice of scrum where the Flanker picked up the ball?
Click to expand...

No. The options are:
1. scrum where the fly half kicked the ball, or
2. penalty at "place of infringement". The "place of infringement" is where the flanker first starts moving forward, not where he picks up the ball.


Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.
 
RugbyPlayer3 said:
okay, so i saw it again in a game i was spectating. This time it was a ruck, the scrumhalf passed it to the fly half who kicked it 30meters downfield. The flanker (whom was in the ruck, ahead of the kick) chases down the kick and plays the ball (clearly not onside).. Would they then have a choice of scrum where the Flanker picked up the ball?
Click to expand...
And a warm welcome to the forums RugbyPlayer3. If you are a tighthead prop, it's no wonder this is confusing - most of it takes place while you are still packing down or grinding away in a ruck or maul.

Don't get hung up on whether or not the 10m law comes into play. Irrespective, the scrum option is ALWAYS from where the kicker kicked the ball. That leaves us with only one thing to determine: the location of the PK option.

The PK is offered at the one place the offside player was a) offside; and b) started interfering with play. Remember, we will only penalise the offside player if he interferes with play; all scrummagers are offside if their #10 kicks the ball, as they are ahead of the kick. They interfere with play if they start moving forward BEFORE an onside player has run past them. So: scrum 5m out, 5m in. The #10 is standing under his posts, and kicks long down the middle. The #8 starts moving forward before one of the backs runs past him. By moving forward, he is taking part in the game:

[LAWS]11.1(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:

• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).[/LAWS]

The PK sanction is offered at the place where #8 was standing when he took his first step forward. In effect, that is when he breached the notional "offside line". But if the ball was miskicked and was going to land on or near the scrum, it is not enough for the scrummagers to stand still and wait for a back to put them onside. Law 11.4 (the 10m law) requires them to actively retreat to a point 10m back from where the ball will land. If they simply stand still, they are to be PK'd - see 11.1 above. The place of the PK is still (as Phil E has said) the point where they were standing when the ball was kicked.

The counter-intuitive part of all this is that you (and many players) expect at least one of the options to be where the ball landed or was next played. Forget that; it is not a consideration. So kicker on his 22m line in front of the posts kicks long for touch; winger on the touchline (marginally ahead of the kick) runs toward the opponent who catches the ball on his own 10m line just before it goes into touch, thereby cutting down the opponent's options. Offer is: scrum on 22 in front of the posts; or PK just ahead of the 22 on or near the touchline.
 
Dixie said:
The counter-intuitive part of all this is that you (and many players) expect at least one of the options to be where the ball landed or was next played.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify this: you are only wrong because this is an offside offence.

If it were a case of a late tackle/obstruction, then it is indeed a choice between two PK locations. It is important to distinguish the two types of offence.

Offside: PK at initial offside location, or scrum at place of kick
Obstruction/Late tackle: PK at place of offence, or PK at place where ball lands/is played.
 
wow, i love it here. You guys really dumb it down! Thanks a lot. Another question(s) (and im sure many more to come). So Blue #1 tackles Yellow #2, bring him to ground but doesn't release tackler, Blue #4 comes in (2nd person to the breakdown, no ruck set) does he have rights to the ball? Even if Blue #1 has not yet released Yellow #2?

Also, i hear things about the ball being kicked straight out off restarts, or even open play, what happens? is it brought back to the place of the kick?

Ps; I give advantage to a high tackle, play continues, an offside penalty occurs 2meters ahead, i can't call the offside penalty can i?
 
RugbyPlayer3 said:
So Blue #1 tackles Yellow #2, bring him to ground but doesn't release ball carrier, Blue #4 comes in (1st person to the breakdown, no ruck set) does he have rights to the ball? Even if Blue #1 has not yet released Yellow #2?
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I've tried to tidy this up a bit to make it clear what you are asking. If I've got it wrong please correct. To answer:

No. The first obligation is on Blue #1 to release Yellow #2. This then gives Yellow #2 the freedom to exercise his options.
 
thanks, thats exactly what i thought..

ALSO; been looking in the rule book, can't find it.
Can two players grab a hold of a teammates jerseys while running into contact (early bind i guess you could call it), is there not a rule against that?
 
[LAWS]‘Flying Wedge’. The type of attack known as a ‘Flying Wedge’ usually happens near the goal line, when the attacking team is awarded a penalty kick or free kick.
The kicker tap-kicks the ball and starts the attack, either by driving towards the goal line or by passing to a team-mate who drives forward. Immediately, team mates bind on each side of the ball carrier in a wedge formation. Often one or more of these team mates is in front of the ball carrier. A ‘Flying Wedge’ is illegal.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the place of the original infringement.[/LAWS]

Only specifically illegal as shown here (this is Law 10.4(p)). However, if ref believes an action is dangerous he may penalise.
 
RugbyPlayer3 said:
Ps; I give advantage to a high tackle, play continues, an offside penalty occurs 2meters ahead, i can't call the offside penalty can i?
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My reading of L8.5.a is that you have to apply the sanction for the foul play offence be it the first or second (and I assume regardless of position on the field but others may wish to comment?)
 
RugbyPlayer3 - may I suggest you start a new thread for each unrelated question?.
 
Which team is committing the high tackle, and which team is offside?

If Red is answer to both then you can keep going calling new advantage and if nothing comes then return to which ever one feel is best. You can also call advanatge over say some time after the second offence by red - and at the next break in play Yellow card the red high tackler.

If Red commits the high tackle then Yellow is offside before advantage is over you must come back to the first offence. However... if Red was offside and then Yellow committed a high tackle you may well ping the foul play rather than go back to the offside. Doesn't appear in law, but is what will happen, anyway... (Cue Chopper, perhaps - or "secret email" ...:smile:)
 
Davet said:
Which team is committing the high tackle, and which team is offside?

If Red is answer to both then you can keep going calling new advantage and if nothing comes then return to which ever one feel is best. You can also call advanatge over say some time after the second offence by red - and at the next break in play Yellow card the red high tackler.

If Red commits the high tackle then Yellow is offside before advantage is over you must come back to the first offence. However... if Red was offside and then Yellow committed a high tackle you may well ping the foul play rather than go back to the offside. Doesn't appear in law, but is what will happen, anyway... (Cue Chopper, perhaps - or "secret email" ...:smile:)
Click to expand...

Am I misreading L8.5.a in my post #17?
 
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