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Sarries v Sale Penalty Try

BikingBud


Referees in England
Sarries 14 being lauded as a great player in the air, he does look a handy player, only 19, but watching the game he has little concern for his own safety.

Just before half time Farrell puts up a cross field kick.

Sale 15 is underneath the landing point, waiting to catch the ball.

Sarries 14 with a jump and high lateral speed is some height above the Sale 15. Sarries 14 hits the Sale 15 who is principally on the ground, does not catch the ball and it is knocked into touch in goal.

Sale 15 is yellow carded and penalty try is awarded.

Why?

ETA -

Might be taken down at any time
 
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9.17A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.
Thanks.....I haven't seen the incident referred to.
Did the 15 tackle, charge, pull , push or grasp their opponent while his feet were off the ground?
 
9.17A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.
So which opponent gets priority?
Thanks.....I haven't seen the incident referred to.
Did the 15 tackle, charge, pull , push or grasp their opponent while his feet were off the ground?
Or did the Sarries 14 ?
Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball must not hold, push, charge or obstruct an opponent not in possession of the ball.
 
I watched the match on TV. Sarries 14 ran in and jumped so high that the Sale defender walked into his legs while looking up at the incoming ball.
The Referree correctly under law IMHO gave a yellow card and penalty try.

However I feel the law to be unfair and to encourage dangerous play. Notwithstanding that young man is spectacular and VERY exciting to watch
 
I watched the match on TV. Sarries 14 ran in and jumped so high that the Sale defender walked into his legs while looking up at the incoming ball.
The Referree correctly under law IMHO gave a yellow card and penalty try.

However I feel the law to be unfair and to encourage dangerous play. Notwithstanding that young man is spectacular and VERY exciting to watch
So high and so far.

Why does the defender not have a right to collect the ball without getting barged out of the space by somebody jumping into them?

Which Law please and why?

I feel that there is this allocation of blame that is not based on Law, deciding that one was higher hence the more athletic players having less concern for thier own safety is untenable.

I feel this is a much more fundamental discussion about how player safety can be sustained.

Yes I agree he appears to be an exceptional prospect.
 
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I've no problem with the yellow card but 2 things to consider.
1. Was the attacking team ever likely to catch the ball? I don't think so on the replay so why a PT?
2. If the defending player was in position and stood still waiting to catch the ball, play on or even penalty against attacker for jumping into his head?
 

Point of order: 15 isn't standing patiently waiting, he's running in too, and not paying attention to 14.

That's the way it's reffed, there are many examples going back some years. The player in the air needs protection, the other player wasn't in a position to compete for the ball (because the 14 was above and therefore there first). If 15 had jumped it would have been a contest, but he kept running and took the player's legs out.

Also, you may not like it, many don't, but it's not anyone's job to prove it to you in law. You could always blow up for unsafe play if you want to stop players jumping for high balls; I suspect an assessor won't reward you for that, as in general the law favours the player/team who actively contests the ball.
 

Point of order: 15 isn't standing patiently waiting, he's running in too, and not paying attention to 14.

That's the way it's reffed, there are many examples going back some years. The player in the air needs protection, the other player wasn't in a position to compete for the ball (because the 14 was above and therefore there first). If 15 had jumped it would have been a contest, but he kept running and took the player's legs out.

Also, you may not like it, many don't, but it's not anyone's job to prove it to you in law. You could always blow up for unsafe play if you want to stop players jumping for high balls; I suspect an assessor won't reward you for that, as in general the law favours the player/team who actively contests the ball.

And that is my point: "The way it is reffed" there is no basis in Law to find for the player who jumps in recklessly. They do not need any protection if they don't act recklessly.

@Rich_NL - If it wasn't convention to provide protection to the jumpers action how would you manage it?
  • How did Sarries 14 know that Sale 15 would be stationary?
  • How do you know that they knew?
  • Is it a leap of faith or a reckless act?
  • Why is Sale 15 not allowed to run and catch? That's removing the basis of fair competition.
  • Why should it matter that one is static and the other can move, it doesn't say that in Law?
  • The protection of the Laws also apply to the Sale player's intent to catch the ball without someone clattering into them, Sale 15 was prevented from competing because Sarries 14 jumped all over them.
If we ping taking out the player before they have caught the ball on the ground what is fundamentally different when another player decides to jump into the player that is waiting on the ground to catch the ball? Why should the fact that they jumped in to disrupt the primed catch rather than dropping the shoulder and smashing the ribs in before they have caught the pass be viewed or treated any different?

Coming to how I might apply the Laws - if there is no basis in Law to find for the jumper being allowed to do this why should I ping the non-jumper and perpetuate the charade that it is about player safety?

You may not like it but we are required to referee according to the Laws! See the Playing Charter - https://passport.world.rugby/laws-of-the-game/playing-charter/

There is an over-riding obligation on the players to observe the laws and to respect the principles of fair play. The laws must be applied in such a way as to ensure that the game is played according to the principles of play. The match officials can achieve this through fairness, consistency, sensitivity and, when appropriate, management. In return, it is the responsibility of coaches, captains and players to respect the authority of the match officials.

Do you make up other things to blow up on, or not blow up on, that are not in Law. Because somebody somewhere thought it might be OK to manage the game in such a manner? Not straight scrum feeds, and we already see the farce of not straight line outs, jackles, players off their feet and sealing off in rucks stem from ignoring Law or applying different interpretations.

If we are about player safety then we should outlaw the reckless jump, not penalise the players who decide to compete whilst on the ground.

Any assessor that has an issue with pinging a reckless jumper should not be an assessor.
 
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And that is my point: "The way it is reffed" there is no basis in Law to find for the player who jumps in recklessly. They do not need any protection if they don't act recklessly.
In this specific case the Sale 15 was still getting into position so for this I’d agree the burden is on him to get out the way or reposition to where the jumper will land. When kicks like this get lofted I’d say it’s a fair assumption someone will jump so either you get there in time and compete in the air or target the landing.

What does get me is your point about reckless jumping, especially when the defender is already in position - for me this is dangerous/reckless behavior by the jumper and should be treated as such. As of now, they get a free hit, even if leading with their knee.

It is an area that I think WR really should look into.

But I suspect we won’t see that until we have the farce of an unconscious player being given a card while being wheeled off on a spinal board.
 
In this specific case the Sale 15 was still getting into position so for this I’d agree the burden is on him to get out the way or reposition to where the jumper will land. When kicks like this get lofted I’d say it’s a fair assumption someone will jump so either you get there in time and compete in the air or target the landing.

What does get me is your point about reckless jumping, especially when the defender is already in position - for me this is dangerous/reckless behavior by the jumper and should be treated as such. As of now, they get a free hit, even if leading with their knee.

It is an area that I think WR really should look into.

But I suspect we won’t see that until we have the farce of an unconscious player being given a card while being wheeled off on a spinal board.
When kicks like this get lofted I’d say it’s a fair assumption someone will be on the ground trying to compete and catch it so you do not jump with high lateral speed (recklessly) into that space!
 
And that is my point: "The way it is reffed" there is no basis in Law to find for the player who jumps in recklessly. They do not need any protection if they don't act recklessly.

What an odd claim. Of course they need protection, otherwise someone could run into their legs while they're in the air and claim they were just getting into position to catch.

Your claim is that he jumps in recklessly. I don't think you'll find very much agreement that jumping to compete for the ball is reckless. If he jumps studs out, or with his knee aiming at a stationary player's head, that's reckless. If he's trying to get to the ball before the opposition, that's competing. If the opposition can't or won't compete, they shouldn't put the player who's trying to play the game in danger.

  • How did Sarries 14 know that Sale 15 would be stationary?

Sale 15 wasn't stationary. Sarries 14 jumped for the ball without anyone where he would land, Sale 15 ran into that space.

  • Why is Sale 15 not allowed to run and catch? That's removing the basis of fair competition.

He is allowed, as long as doing so doesn't endanger anyone. Same with a player who stands still and drops a shoulder - it's not an offence if there's no-one else around, it's a penalty if it's done to take a kick chaser out.

  • The protection of the Laws also apply to the Sale player's intent to catch the ball without someone clattering into them, Sale 15 was prevented from competing because Sarries 14 jumped all over them.

Watch the video again, Sale 15 is running in.

I appreciate that 14 jumping straight at a stationary 15 is a controversial point; how it's now reffed may well change, and a ref can call it differently according to circumstance and level, age grade, etc. But that's not at all what happened here.

If we ping taking out the player before they have caught the ball on the ground what is fundamentally different when another player decides to jump into the player that is waiting on the ground to catch the ball? Why should the fact that they jumped in to disrupt the primed catch rather than dropping the shoulder and smashing the ribs in before they have caught the pass be viewed or treated any different?

They jump to catch the ball first. Because they're competing for possession. A core tenet of rugby. Smashing the ribs is not doing that.
 
I feel we can go around this all night.

What an odd claim. Of course they need protection, otherwise someone could run into their legs while they're in the air and claim they were just getting into position to catch.
Sale 15 didn't run into the airborne player they were trying to position to field the kicked ball but they were barged by Sarries 14. There is nothing to protect them from unless they jump into space where it is entirely reasonable to expect someone to be "just getting into position to catch" If you prevent the player just getting into the position to catch why? The ball is live, they are as entitled as any other player to compete and gain possession.

Your claim is that he jumps in recklessly. I don't think you'll find very much agreement that jumping to compete for the ball is reckless. If he jumps studs out, or with his knee aiming at a stationary player's head, that's reckless. If he's trying to get to the ball before the opposition, that's competing. If the opposition can't or won't compete, they shouldn't put the player who's trying to play the game in danger.
But Sarries 14 did decide to jump into that space. They should expect someone to be there stationary or otherwise. And expecting to get protection (impunity) from any impact with a player trying to field the ball that arises from their high lateral speed is wholly avoidable by remaining on the ground and hence is a reckless action.

Sale 15 wasn't stationary. Sarries 14 jumped for the ball without anyone where he would land, Sale 15 ran into that space.
So he jumped into a space not knowing if it would be clear or occupied by either a stationary or moving player. That comes with some responsibility. I would say akin to driving round a blind bend with no idea what might be around the corner. You go slow you can react and adjust, you drive too swiftly and you may not be able to stop and end up colliding with slow moving or stationary traffic. Whose fault is it?

And where does it say in Law that the defender cannot run into that space to compete. I offer that he was prevented from the fielding the ball, he was obstructed: 9.15 - Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball must not hold, push, charge or obstruct an opponent not in possession of the ball. That should protect the defender, is that invalidated by something unwritten?

He is allowed, as long as doing so doesn't endanger anyone. Same with a player who stands still and drops a shoulder - it's not an offence if there's no-one else around, it's a penalty if it's done to take a kick chaser out.
So a centre running a dummy line and getting smashed is illegal? An early tackle on the same running player is also illegal? But a centre running the line and getting the ball is ok getting smashed? - Happy with that but if you run and jump into someone about to, or positioning, themselves to catch is OK? They do not have the ball, what is fundamentally different?

Watch the video again, Sale 15 is running in.
To field the ball until he was barged out of the way by Sarries 14 - Peep. Penalty against Sarries 14 - Law 9.15

If Sale 15 was on the ground and was taken out before he could catch it would you ping Sarries 14? If not why not? If so why are you giving him protection because Sarries 14 is jumping to take him out?

I appreciate that 14 jumping straight at a stationary 15 is a controversial point; how it's now reffed may well change, and a ref can call it differently according to circumstance and level, age grade, etc. But that's not at all what happened here.
When you jump you have no idea if the space will be filled by a person or not, nor if they might be stationary or not, you as the jumper take that risk. The thing that happened here is that the persistent application of something not written in the Laws appears to always favour the jumper. Without any consideration for the conduct and execution of the jump or the risk the jumper is exposing themselves to. Hence the tactic proceeds with impunity, removes fair competition and will at some point lead to a siginifcant and wholly avoidable injury.

The people that do not apply the Law to protect players on the ground and inhibit this tactic are complicit. How should an assessor view that ? Or are they willing also to become complicit?
 
I don't get the impression that you're debating in good faith, so I'll withdraw from the discussion.
Unsure what that means or why you feel that way but disappointing that rational discourse about Law interpretation and unsafe play cannot occur here.

I am offering that in the quoted example application of the Laws is based upon something that is not in Law. In this instance it appears the offence has been decided because the jumper is always protected. A premise that leads to increased risk due to more people jumping with impunity.

If you feel that you do not want to continue, fair dos but to claim it is in bad faith then I fear you have missed my points. I am trying to explore the logic of your arguments to understand why you might apply Laws in one way when presented with one situation but fall back on it's always the fault of the player on the ground merely because one player took to the air. If the logic is difficult then I apologise but if we are to rationalise our decisions then we should be able to dissect and discuss what we saw and what we did. The assessor would expect that to be the case. No?

We should take each event on its own merit and consider if or how the Law has been transgressed, not say it always the fault of the player on the ground. It is as fundamentally corrupt as penalising each scrum in turn until scrummaging improves.

If I wanted to take the piss I would revert to Ruck or suchlike!
 
Sarries 14 being lauded as a great player in the air, he does look a handy player, only 19, but watching the game he has little concern for his own safety.

Just before half time Farrell puts up a cross field kick.

Sale 15 is underneath the landing point, waiting to catch the ball.
going to invoke the Deja vu card on this one.

 
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