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swing low

It's a funny one, isn't it ?
If it was a song written by slave owners, celebrating property rights then it would be easy to condemn

But in fact it's a song written by slaves yearning for deliverance

Does that make a difference?
 
it will be interesting to hear from the woke folk. Cultural appropriation, apparently. So if it had been written by a white slave owner possibly not as offensive.

And, of course, will an official ban discourage the throngs from singing it? More likely a call to arms.
 
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There’s definitely a move away from the Chris Oti origin, where a group of school boys claim they immortalized a 1960s drinking song, less the rude hand gestures.

A 2015 BBC article tells us
...the Market Bosworth Rugby Club members at Twickenham that day - Dave Hales, John Ward, Bruce Coleman and Paul Spencer - all maintain they started singing the song first.
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In rugby terms it was a grassroots rugby song , sung all over the UK , that was accidentally appropriated by England

I remember it from 1982, there are plenty of people on social media who sang it in clubs the sixties and seventies
We all sang it in my uni team, including Welsh and Scots, it had no association with England then, it was just a rugby song (rather like take me home country roads is now !)

I don't think the RFU are considering trying to ban it, but rather whether to cease promoting and encouraging it (it's all over the stadium currently, the RFU love it)

I suspect that regardless of what the RFU do , the song is going to start to wane, people aren't going to be so happy with it.

The big problem is what to replace it with ..
 
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I don’t buy the RFU position that most fans don’t know there’s a connection. That’s insulting their intelligence, everyone knows it’s a negro spiritual/gospel song.
 
Given that *every single time* the song is ever mentioned, we are reminded of that .. I suspect you are right :)
 
I think it means that those in the marketing department at the patch had no idea about its origins - and probably don't know the actions.
 
crossref said:
In rugby terms it was a grassroots rugby song , sung all over the UK , that was accidentally appropriated by England

I remember it from 1982, there are plenty of people on social media who sang it in clubs the sixties and seventies
We all sang it in my uni team, including Welsh and Scots, it had no association with England then, it was just a rugby song (rather like take me home country roads is now !)

I don't think the RFU are considering trying to ban it, but rather whether to cease promoting and encouraging it (it's all over the stadium currently, the RFU love it)

I suspect that regardless of what the RFU do , the song is going to start to wane, people aren't going to be so happy with it.

The big problem is what to replace it with ..
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Agadoo
 
It’s a slave song that found its way into rugby by being sung by majority white fans at black wingers scoring for their majority white team. If nobody sees any problems with that, well...

(FWIW, Welsh fan, have never liked the song. I’ve always found its rugby heritage problematic, plus it gets turned into a monotonous dirge by the Twickenham crowd)
 
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I remember the song and actions from the early 80s at University.

I can't imagine Chris Oti and his 8 international tries (not all at Twickenham) over 3 or 4 years sparked it all off...? Hardly tradional but then again Flower of Scotland isn't old but at least it's Scottish.

Dunno.

Anyway it's awful, like the National Anthem.
 
Pablo said:
It’s a slave song that found its way into rugby by being sung by majority white fans at black wingers scoring for their majority white team. If nobody sees any problems with that, well...
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no. it found its way into rugby much earlier than that - some time in the sixties from the memories I am seeing on twitter (must ask my dad if he remmebers it)

It became associated with the England team in the 80s and, yes, that migration was on the back of celebrating the first wave of black players in to the team (yes I know about Jimmy Peters)

Here's the first known recording of the song - 1909 - makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUvBGZnL9rE
 
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whatever its origins and whatever the rights and wrongs of "banning it"

* any ban is totally unenforceable. it 20K people start singing it at a match what are the ground authorities going to do? Evict 20K people with the attendant impact of the enjoyment of the match for the other 50-60K?

* its a bloody dirge and needs dropping anyway

* neither of the above will occur

didds
 
didds said:
whatever its origins and whatever the rights and wrongs of "banning it"

* any ban is totally unenforceable. it 20K people start singing it at a match what are the ground authorities going to do? Evict 20K people with the attendant impact of the enjoyment of the match for the other 50-60K?

* its a bloody dirge and needs dropping anyway

* neither of the above will occur

didds
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it's not about banning it - it's a question of whether the RFU stop promoting it

my prediction is : we have hit peak chariot . The RFU will cease promoting it (a decision they could take without consultation really) and going forward people won't be so keen on singing it anyway - and it will wane naturally, but gradually

If I was the RFU, I'd step away from the song now --- remove it from all the England promotional material so it's no longer part of the official brand. Hand it back to the fans to choose to sing or not sing.

Meanwhile continue to look for another song, and prompt the candidates at games, see if any take off
 
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didds said:
whatever its origins and whatever the rights and wrongs of "banning it"

* any ban is totally unenforceable. it 20K people start singing it at a match what are the ground authorities going to do? Evict 20K people with the attendant impact of the enjoyment of the match for the other 50-60K?

* its a bloody dirge and needs dropping anyway

* neither of the above will occur

didds
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there have been bans before:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...matilda-ban-angers-wallabies-fans-102284.html
 
crossref said:
it's not about banning it - it's a question of whether the RFU stop promoting it
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that's not what the telegraph headline says though.

And as much as I can see in front of the paywall

"England rugby fans could soon be banned from singing ‘Swing Low, Sweet Chariot’ at international matches because of its origins as an anthem for American slaves.

The Rugby Football Union (RFU) announced on Thursday that it was conducting a review into the ‘historical context’ of the song over concerns it is inappropriate.

A well-placed source said: “One option after consultations is to stop this being sung at matches.”

The use by the RFU on social media of the slogan “Carry Them Home” taken from the song’s second line has been suspended with immediate effect, the organisation said"
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So yes - one line of that is regarding the RFU's own use of it.

Two other lines directly mention fans involvement, potentially unilaterally of course.

Whether of course that is merel;y shoddy jounalism remains to be seen , but my remarks were directly aimed at those _fans_ orientated claims. And like the Waltzing matilda point above, its unenforceable at that level.

didds
 
didds said:
"Whether the ban can be enforced is questionable. The IRB has not explained how it will prevent a crowd of 80,000 from singing unaccompanied."
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The only way to enforce it would be to stop the match and not continue until the singing stops...then repeat. It could seriously backfire if the game is on TV as it could become a standoff of who blinks first. Would the RFU or World Rugby risk that?
 
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