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Thoughts on this?

C

Cross

Member
Marx about to score, gets tackled from the side and pushed towards the sideline, where his teammate touches the ball and the sideline with his foot.

Here are two pics (one a split second before Reinach's foot touches the line and another one when he does). Relevant one is probably the second one but the quality is pretty bad so the first one is my poor attempt at compensations, i guess.

1759591911244.png

1759591898652.png

Try or no try?
 
That's a championship deciding call. I am not going to comment on the knock on one because, well, intention plays a role and i want to give refs the benefit of the doubt. I can even disagree but understand the other pov. But this one should be quite straightforward, shouldn't it?
 
crossref said:
Hand on the ball, foot in touch.
I'd say that is touch
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Interesting question.
So if you're a defender in a maul that's getting monstered back to your try line, all you've got to do is touch the ball while having a foot in touch?
 
Dickie E said:
Interesting question.
So if you're a defender in a maul that's getting monstered back to your try line, all you've got to do is touch the ball while having a foot in touch?
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No. Isn't that specifically covered in law?
 
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Its at game time 44 mins elapsed. The 2nd players touch is fleeting. I'm ok with the try.
 
BikingBud said:
Can there be only one ball carrier?

Or more than one?
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I thought this was the crux of the matter, but when i looked at law 18 it states

18.1The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when:
a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.
b. A player, who is already touching the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond, catches or holds the ball.

Note how in a. it mentions ball carrier but in b. it doesn't. I don't think that was an accident. It states "a player who... holds the ball". Is Reinach holding the ball?
 
Cross said:
I thought this was the crux of the matter, but when i looked at law 18 it states

18.1The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when:
a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.
b. A player, who is already touching the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond, catches or holds the ball.

Note how in a. it mentions ball carrier but in b. it doesn't. I don't think that was an accident. It states "a player who... holds the ball". Is Reinach holding the ball?
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Not so sure. B is really about player who is fielding a kick. A ball carrier can't field a kick unless there's 2 balls on the paddock
 
I am thinking now that it covered by 18.2.d and is not in touch

18.2The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:

a. The ball reaches the plane of touch but is caught, knocked or kicked by a player who is in the playing area.

b. A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.

c. A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.

d. A player, who is in touch, kicks or knocks the ball, but does not hold it, provided it has not reached the plane of touch
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Perhaps this helps:

Holding the ball Being in possession of the ball in the hand or hands or in the arm or arms.

To my mind touching is not holding and the try is good.

Also checking:

Possession An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

The team, SA are in control and the individual Marks is in control.
 
BikingBud said:
Perhaps this helps:

Holding the ball Being in possession of the ball in the hand or hands or in the arm or arms.

To my mind touching is not holding and the try is good.

Also checking:

Possession An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

The team, SA are in control and the individual Marks is in control.
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There is also:
Ball-carrier A player who is in possession of the ball​

Whether intentional or not, the law is singular and not “A player, or players,…”
 
Volun-selected said:
There is also:
Ball-carrier A player who is in possession of the ball​

Whether intentional or not, the law is singular and not “A player, or players,…”
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That was my start point perhaps the Kurgan reference was a bit too subtle - In a very croaky voice "There can be only one"

Harry said:
Reading the laws in my usual pedantic way that's a try. The second player is not a ball carrier, so 18,2.d applies.
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Although being pedantic are we not saying that 18.2.d does not apply, the "touching, in touch" player is not holding the ball.

Primarily we are saying, the ball was always under the control of Marks, (The ball Carrier). I find that 18.1 is negative -

18.1The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when:

a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.
Click to expand...

We can check our understanding to see if the "touching, in touch player" has any basis to make the ball in touch. As they are not holding the ball, 18.2.d might have been considered:

d. A player, who is in touch, kicks or knocks the ball, but does not hold it, provided it has not reached the plane of touch."
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But it cannot apply as this applies only to a loose ball, whereas the ball was not loose and was neither kicked or knocked by the touching, in touch player.

And 18.2 does not apply as the three other sub-conditions are also negative therefore the Law "18.2 - The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:" is wholly negative!

As none of the conditions that are required to determine the ball as "In Touch" have been met then it is just play on. The ball is still in play and in the field of play. Try

Isn't some of this like saying that a Knock Forward wasn't awarded:
Knock forwardWhen a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. [previously knock-on]
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When the ball is still, and always has been, in the possession of the ball carrier.

We don't constantly argue why play is not an infringement, we play until we see something that can be determined to be an infringement and then make the call.

Touching player in touch was not the ball carrier, ball carrier did not go into touch, and therefore the try is good.
 
Cross said:
I thought this was the crux of the matter, but when i looked at law 18 it states

18.1The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when:
a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.
b. A player, who is already touching the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond, catches or holds the ball.

Note how in a. it mentions ball carrier but in b. it doesn't. I don't think that was an accident. It states "a player who... holds the ball". Is Reinach holding the ball?
Click to expand...
but Reinach (if I've understood correctly) isnt in touch THEN holds the ball. He is as a second player in field. touched ball, while touching bal;l puts a foot in touch.

that's a part (c) which isnt included in #8
 
Harry said:
18.1.a reads as ball carrier being singular
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indeed.

Its clearly a scenario the law makers have never considered.

Mauls as an example (notwithstanding a specific entity ion their own right) may have several ball carriers (CF holders/touchers) at any time.
 
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