Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 45

Thread: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

      
  1. #21

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,797

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    I disagree. This isn't (nor should it be) a matter for judgement. During a period of advantage the sanction for an offence by Team A always applies unless the 2nd offence by Team B is dangerous play.
    Throwing the ball into touch is deliberate cheating. A knock-on is an accidental infringement. Law 8 is unsatisfactory, so it is yet another case where we have to make sense of the situations that occur. I see no reason to limit yourself to dangerous play.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  2. #22
    Slowing down these days

    Soc/Assoc
    London Society
    Grade
    Level 8
    Join Date
    21 Jan 09
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Many thanks for all your replies and advice on this one.
    When we do the referee courses we are taught about "contextual judgement" and it sounds like, in this case, I was right to go with my gut instinct to end the game under the "no advantage had accrued" after the first knock-on.
    This is U13's and their first season on the full-sized pitch etc.
    However, because the game was tight and the Red team were 5 metres from the line, of course, there were a few dads questioning my decision . I guess now , I could simply point them to that law 8.5(b).

    I think I would, from now on, always do this for a minor act of foul play. In the case of anything I considered dangerous, that would trump the advantage and I would penalise. So, for example, I would come back for the scrum for intentional throw forward, or out to touch or offside. But a dangerous tackle or a punch thrown would end advantage immediately for me and I penalise the offender.
    I don't think a team with advantage should be allowed to get away with anything and think they always go back for their scrum.

    This sounds sensible to the spirit to the game.
    Hope you agree.

  3. #23

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    18,999

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    I think you were actually fortunate that advantage was being played, as your decision and the overall outcome feels 'right' all round to me.

    When I had a U13 once throw it into touch, believing this would end the game, the scenario was much more simple:
    - scrum awarded to red
    - ball came out on red side
    - red SH threw it into touch and leapt around celebrating his side's close victory (oops)

    he was aghast, and hideously embarrassed, to discover the truth (although he didn't know, a number of his team mates did!).

    In those circumstances I did give the PK (and a kind explanation, and 'don't worry, you know now, happens to everyone').

    the game was close of course (that's why he was anxious to end it), and I was glad for him that blue were unable to score from the PK.

  4. #24

    Referees in Wales


    Soc/Assoc
    Cardiff
    Grade
    WRU Level 2
    Join Date
    10 Feb 04
    Posts
    4,089

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Of course you always have the old...Ref is the sole judge of fact and he is normally the time keeper. So " No advantage guys still time for the scrum". could be an option at mini / midi level level.
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

  5. #25

    Referees in England
    Dixie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired from Berkshire
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    26 Oct 06
    Posts
    12,770

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Good debate! FWIW, I like B52's idea that only dangerous play negates advantage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Burns View Post
    Unfortunately, while all your ideas are sensible, they are not to law.

    8.5 MORE THAN ONE INFRINGEMENT
    (b) If advantage is being played following an infringement by one team and then the other team commit an infringement, the referee blows the whistle and applies the sanctions associated with the first infringement.


    So the sanction for the first offence should apply.
    I view this as a general statement of the default position, not an absolute. If the FH knocks on in strong attacking position, as a result of which his frustrated #8 punches him in the face, knocking out his front teeth, I am not going to restart with a scrum following #8's red mist RC.

    CTPE, this has been a really useful debate, but a Society ref would expect contructive criticism for allowing himself to get into this situation. As a matter of good management practice, let me suggest:
    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    ...with 10 secs to go ... I announced that there were "seconds" to go and that I would blow for full-time when the ball next goes dead.
    Tyr not to be so precise. You are painting yourself into a corner, and (as here) may have difficulty extricating yourself. When asked how long, say soemthing more general such as Very Short Time, or Less Than A Minute. Even your Seconds Remaining may have been OK, if you hadn't promised to blow at the next stoppage. The Oh-God of Contumely will ensure that the next stoppage is a PK, leaving you (as here) high and dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    The line out was taken and Red ( the attackers ) knock-on. I immedately say and signal (with my arm) advantage to the defending team.
    What advantage were you looking for here? We are 95m from a scoring opportunity, and Blue are still in danger of conceding a score, even with possession of the ball. You could blow for the knock-on which would end the game, or you can play on with Blue in a parecarious situation almost certainly not going to score from 95m out. What advantage do you see them gaining? For me, having said how little time there was, ad that the next stoppage ends the game, there seems every reason to blow or the next offence by the attackers. If Blue had knocked on, there's a very real prospect of Red advantage, but the other way is playing advantage out of habit; it's not a rational play.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  6. #26

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    South Yorkshire
    Grade
    National Panel
    Join Date
    08 Aug 05
    Posts
    1,514

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    If the FH knocks on in strong attacking position, as a result of which his frustrated #8 punches him in the face, knocking out his front teeth, I am not going to restart with a scrum following #8's red mist RC.
    Why are you going to RC the #8???

  7. #27

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,797

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacko View Post
    Why are you going to RC the #8???
    You are presumably (humorously)suggesting that since Law 10.2 (a) says
    A player must not strike an opponent [...]
    it is therefore acceptable to punch a team mate. A referee who did not use 10.4 (m) would be marked down by me.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  8. #28

    Referees in Scotland
    Pinky's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Edinburgh Rugby Referees Society
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    09 Apr 10
    Posts
    1,508

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    I think i would go back for the original KO unless the offence by the team plaing with the advantage was serious enough for me to be thinking of reversing a penalty.

  9. #29

    Referees in Canada
    ddjamo's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Michigan, Ontario
    Grade
    B2
    Join Date
    29 Jun 08
    Posts
    2,912

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    wait? am I the only one seeing this?

    8.5 MORE THAN ONE INFRINGEMENT

    (a) When there is more than one infringement by the same team:
    • If advantage cannot be applied to the second offence the referee applies the appropriate sanction to the first offence.
    • If advantage is played for the second offence but none accrues, the referee applies the appropriate sanction for the second offence.
    • If either sanction is for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction for that offence.
    (b) If advantage is being played following an infringement by one team and then the other team commit an infringement, the referee blows the whistle and applies the sanctions associated with the first infringement.

    very clear to me.

  10. #30

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,985

    Default Re: Penalty infringement during advantage. Is advantage over imediately ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddjamo View Post
    wait? am I the only one seeing this?

    8.5 MORE THAN ONE INFRINGEMENT

    (a) When there is more than one infringement by the same team:
    • If advantage cannot be applied to the second offence the referee applies the appropriate sanction to the first offence.
    • If advantage is played for the second offence but none accrues, the referee applies the appropriate sanction for the second offence.
    • If either sanction is for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction for that offence.
    (b) If advantage is being played following an infringement by one team and then the other team commit an infringement, the referee blows the whistle and applies the sanctions associated with the first infringement.

    very clear to me.
    your text in red applies when same team commits subsequent offence. We are unravelling the situation where t'other team commits second offence.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Penalty Advantage Over
    By Waspsfan in forum Archive
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 13-03-11, 22:03
  2. Penalty advantage & advantage
    By luvreffin in forum Archive
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 09-03-11, 16:03
  3. Penalty Advantage
    By Phil E in forum Archive
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 20-07-08, 02:07
  4. Advantage/Penalty Question
    By TexasRef in forum Archive
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 02-04-08, 11:04
  5. Advantage not gained or penalty?
    By jboulet4648 in forum Archive
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 12-04-07, 09:04

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •