Who gets scrum after maul pushed into in-goal ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

Should just be a quick one for people to answer.
I am not sure if laws 17.5 and 22.10 are opposing.

If an attacking team pushes a maul into the in-goal such that the ball is over the goal-line put fails to ground it, then I would award a 5 metre scrum to the attacking team.

However, a counter point of you was put to me recently that the maul should be judged to have stopped moving and so the 5 metre scrum should be awarded to the team that didn't take it into the maul i.e. usually the defending team !

I would like to know which interpretation of the laws is correct here ?
Thanks

[talbazar]

As you pointed out, law 17.5 states the maul successfully ended when the ball went over the goal line.
So at that point, there's no maul anymore.

If the late-maul collapses, then the ball is held up (law 22.10 as you mentioned).

The answer to the point which was given to you is that the maul ended successfully when the ball crossed the goal line

Hope it helps (and I'm correct too).
Cheers,
Pierre.

[CrouchTPEngage]

Thanks. Great point about the "ending successfully".
Hence I am right to award attacking 5 metre scrum and communicate "ball held-up in-goal"

[Robert Burns]

Yep, spot on!

[Dixie]

I think you have the positoon clear now. Relevant laws are:

Law 1 Definition: The Field of play is the area (as shown on the plan) between the goal lines and the touchlines. These lines are not part of the field of play.

17.1 FORMING A MAUL
(a) Where can a maul take place. A maul can only take place in the field of play.

17.5 SUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL
A maul ends successfully when :
...
• the ball is on or over the goal line.

22.6 SCRUM, RUCK OR MAUL PUSHED INTO IN-GOAL
A scrum, ruck or maul can take place only in the field of play. As soon as a scrum, ruck or maul is pushed across the goal line, a player may legally ground the ball.This results in a touch down or try.

22.10 BALL HELD UP IN-GOAL
When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.

[OB..]

For once, let's give the IRB credit for foreseeing the potential problem and dealing with it clearly.

[Cave Dweller]

Question. So if a maul or a scrum ends when it enters the in goal era does it mean if both collapse the referee can not award a penalty try for collapsing both?

[Taff]

Question. So if a maul or a scrum ends when it enters the in goal era does it mean if both collapse the referee can not award a penalty try for collapsing both?

I can see your logic, but I assume you can still give a PK for Dangerous Play.

[Dixie]

Question. So if a maul or a scrum ends when it enters the in goal era does it mean if both collapse the referee can not award a penalty try for collapsing both?

My first thought was: not necessarily - the dangerous play laws still apply. However, unless you can consider trying to ground a ball in in-goal in a contested situation as "acts contrary to good sportsmanship", I struggle to find anything in law that would prevent this. However, if I were to see a non-ball carrier trying to bring part or all of a group of players to ground in in-goal, I'd penalise on safety grounds and take on the chin the moans (if any) at the end of the game.

[FlipFlop]

Correct - yo ucannot penalise collapsing maul or scrum if it is in-goal.
A "Maul" that goes in-goal is fiarly commonly collapsed, as the ball carrier tries to score.
A scrum to be judged as ended due to going in-goal, is when the ball crosses the line. Then you can collpase it - but to what benefit? Better to get a hand to the ball (try or make it dead).