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Thread: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

      
  1. #51

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Or is OB dot dot the self-appointed Hand of the King?
    I think he's far too sensible - that role rarely ends well. Between 282AL and 283AL, there were no fewer than five Hands, the last of which, Jon Arryn, died (like his successor Eddard Stark) on the orders of Queen Cersei.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  2. #52

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    How does the Imp fair? I'm only 1/2 way through season 2
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  3. #53

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Wouldn't dream of spoiling it for you. Let's just say he gets more crumpet than either of us!
    Don't feed the pedant!

  4. #54
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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    I think you have missed his point. If the scrum has simply shifted and become stable in a new position, then of course he can also adjust. YEP YYEP AGREED However his problem is that you cannot realistically throw the ball in straight if the scrum is actually moving. What if the pack starts to shove on hearing "Yes, 9"? The referee should halt proceedings and make them do it again, not continue to insist on the ball being thrown in.
    The scrum construction & the natural [hooker nearer ] advantage [whilst normal] is acknowledged but isn't cast in stone because as we all know the ball can be put in any side of the scrum. Ian's point was that the 'Yes' 9 gave an 'equalising the advantage' pushing opportunity to the non feeding side, which of course isn't correct as neither side should push [or strike] before ball leaves SH hands ...ie commences.. It's not Aaron Smiths problem, it's the referees problem. The referee decides whether he wants to have the scrum restablised, What Aaron Smith is doing is pseudo explaining why he is kinda compelled to crooked feed toward his own team, so that when the opposition side get their expected shove on he will still be putting in straight, this is no change from the current HIT position that has caused all the issues with hugely crooked feeds. I contend that when the referee says 'yes 9' AS should put in if stable, follow the tunnel if not [and still put in ] , & let the referee decide whether to ping for early shove. In fact a really cute9 might slide his feet/lean his body towards his oppositions no8 to exaggerate the oppositions early shove - I would until I got caught!

  5. #55
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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post

    Look at it as if you are the SH standing in front the tunnel. Your scrum is on your right as it always is when its your throw-in.
    The scrum is square and stable and just as the referee says "Yes 9" and you are about to tap the ball on the hookers arm, the opposition begins pushing the scrum to your right and it starts to move. The centre line of the scrum moves with it. If you throw the ball down the centreline now, by the time it gets past the width of your loosehead prop, the centreline has moved to your right, and your hooker will find it more difficult, if not impossible to hook, If you try to compensate for the moving centreline by throwing the ball in with enough bias to keep it on the moving centreline, from the outside, it looks like you have thrown it in squint.
    yes yes yes , all this is obvious ian, ...... see post #54 My point is that it's not AS role to compensate

  6. #56

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Nothing but likely problems and reasons why things will go awry...

    Or is it just refs getting their excuses in early for not being able to manage it?

    Looking forward to 'observing' for real (trials only so far) and seeing which refs can adhere to the law and manage the players!!

  7. #57

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    The scrum construction & the natural [hooker nearer ] advantage [whilst normal] is acknowledged but isn't cast in stone because as we all know the ball can be put in any side of the scrum.
    It can, but it won't be.
    It's not Aaron Smiths problem, it's the referees problem.
    Aaron Smith's problem was precisely that referee did not insist on the scrum being stable yet expected him to throw in the ball.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    It can, but it won't be. Aaron Smith's problem was precisely that referee did not insist on the scrum being stable yet expected him to throw in the ball.
    Yep, that is the expectation, if he doesn't like it then tough. Let assessors bring refs into line with desired stability thinking , much more preferable to the crooked feed days of yesterday.

  9. #59

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    I contend that when the referee says 'yes 9' AS should put in if stable, follow the tunnel if not [and still put in ] , & let the referee decide whether to ping for early shove. In fact a really cute9 might slide his feet/lean his body towards his oppositions no8 to exaggerate the oppositions early shove - I would until I got caught!
    That is the point. If he does what you say, he will be putting the ball into the opposition's side of the scrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    yes yes yes , all this is obvious ian, ...... see post #54 My point is that it's not AS role to compensate
    He never said that it was. He was asked how the new scrum affected his role as halfback. This is what I posted...

    Aaron Smith (AB SH) said in an after-match interview, that if he's forced to throw it straight in when his scrum is going backwards, he is effectively throwing the ball into the opposition's side of the scrum.
    He said that he found there was a lot more pressure on him to get the feed straight than there was before. At no stage did AS ever say it was his job to compensate for the scrum moving, and nor did I report it that way,.

    I DO, however, think he has a valid point. If referees expect the SH to throw the ball in straight, they simply must understand that the scrum must not be moving at the time of the put in.

    Scrum stability compliance needs to come first and have higher priority than whether or not the ball is fed straight, that is if the scrum is moving and the SH throws the ball in crooked, the "pushing early" offence is more material than the "crooked feed" offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    Yep, that is the expectation, if he doesn't like it then tough. Let assessors bring refs into line with desired stability thinking , much more preferable to the crooked feed days of yesterday.
    All very well to have the assessor correct the referee, but he cant get involved in the game you are playing NOW to make the referee do his job properly!
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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  10. #60

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    Default Re: NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

    Browner

    I have made up this basic animation to graphically illustrate why the referee must ensure that the scrum is stationary when the scrum half throw the ball in.




    The red line is the middle line of the scrum, which will move to the right with the scrum

    The blue line (when it appears) will be that path the ball takes when it is thrown in straight

    As you can see, the moving scrum is all the time pushing the opposing hooker away from the strike zone.

    Same would apply if the grey team were moving forward, they would gain an unfair advantage
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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