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Thread: Ruck clarification recieved today.

      
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    Default Ruck clarification recieved today.

    From WRU office

    Law Clarity on Ruck
    I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
    Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager regarding two issues around the ruck area.
    1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
    2. Offside at Ruck
    With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
    The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
    I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
    Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Would be nice to see it written somewhere.

    Yes, I know we've always had the LoTG .... but they never seemed to be enough to curtail that pro-interpretation become law of cascaded usage !!

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    ATTR - is that an official, cascaded communication ? Can you upload a PDF ? or is it merely an email from a senior individual.

    It's not much of a clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by All The Time Ref View Post
    From WRU office


    I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
    Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.
    so which is it --- when the ball leaves the ruck ? or when the #9 lifts the ball.
    those two things are completely independent - and indeed could happen in either order.

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by All The Time Ref View Post
    From WRU office

    Law Clarity on Ruck
    I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
    Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager regarding two issues around the ruck area.
    1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
    2. Offside at Ruck
    With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
    The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
    I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
    Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.
    Well that's good isn't it? They contradicted themselves in the same clarification! Clear as mud LOL

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Well that's good isn't it? They contradicted themselves in the same clarification! Clear as mud LOL
    Poorly expressed, yes. However I think the first bit in bold refers to how the situation has been refereed up to now (not that I entirely agree!). The second is how it is to be refereed in future.

    There is still the conflict between lifting the ball and the ball leaving the ruck, of course.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by All The Time Ref
    From WRU office

    Law Clarity on Ruck
    I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
    Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager regarding two issues around the ruck area.
    1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
    2. Offside at Ruck
    With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
    The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
    I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
    Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Well that's good isn't it? They contradicted themselves in the same clarification! Clear as mud LOL
    Not at all! The first is clearly state as "... how it has been refereed for many years..." The second is how the IRB wants it done now.
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    "Lifts the ball to pass it" - does that mean lifts it out of the ruck? After all you cannot pass it otherwise.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by All The Time Ref View Post
    Not at all! The first is clearly state as "... how it has been refereed for many years..." The second is how the IRB wants it done now.
    Well, it's how the WRU want it. Or at least how they understand it.
    Like OB I don't agree with their assessment of how it has previously been done.
    How they want it now is more confusing than how they they say it used to be. Is it when it clears the ruck, or when the scrum half lifts it up?

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Just came across this:
    There was a law ruling made by the IRB towards the end of last year stating that the ball had to be cleared from the ruck for it to be considered as out. In this instance the ball is not cleared when the scrumhalf had his hands on the ball. What we as referees look for is for the ball to be clear and obviously out of the ruck before we rule it as out. What confuses some people is that some referees in the past would say, “Hands on - the ball is out” I include myself in this. The IRB ruling made it very clear for us that it is not the case.
    http://www.sareferees.com/ref-replie...uisen/2829598/
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post



    so which is it --- when the ball leaves the ruck ? or when the #9 lifts the ball.
    those two things are completely independent - and indeed could happen in either order.
    Yes, they need a clarification for their poorly worded clarification.
    I think it is safe to assume your "or" is implied. That is, as soon as either condition is true then the ball is out. Therefore it doesn't matter on the order.

    For mine, though, if a SH needs to dig for the ball, then it's only out as soon as the lifted ball is clear of the bodies (then he's fair game). If he's dicking about with it then he'll get the 'use it' call and has 5 seconds to shift it...and my 5 seconds may be variable depending in the cynical nature of the dicking about (or how lippy the SH as been all game).
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

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