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Thread: Ruck clarification recieved today.

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctrainor View Post
    for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.
    Completely at odds with the law as written and the clarification recently, no wonder confusion exists from week to week

  2. #32

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctrainor View Post
    for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.
    so if the 9 has to dig inside a ruck to drag the ball out to avoid another scrum restart... as soon as he has his hands on it, buried under legs and bodies etc you will permit the oppo to come around the ruck and flatten him?

    Then he is knocked off the ball, he lets go of it and the ball is still inside the ruck. What happens to the oppo that were allowed to come around the ruck - are they now offside because the hands are off and the ball is still inside the ruck? or is the ruck over and they can go digging? Or... ?

    didds

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Scrum ends when ball is out - Ruck ends when ball leaves.

    Difference intentional or not? Is there a difference?

    In practice just need to be consistent - surely?

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    scrums rarely need a s/half to have to dig into the middle of them to free a ball.

    I'm personally happy with whatever interpretation people want. But then we have to consider what we want that interpretation to mean/result in. If /shs can only literally move a ball that is 99% out (just inside the rear foot say) then we have to be happy with possibly lots more scrums as restarts for the ball that gets trapped.

    As a coach I would want my sides driving past the ball of course. But for various reasons that doesn't always happen cleanly enough.

    didds

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctrainor View Post
    for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.
    Apparently not anymore.

  6. #36

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    you are saying it's good clarification -- except that it could have clearer

    that means it was a poor clarification

    Why? Good, Better, Best. Possibly?
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    This is so frustrating. No wonder coaches and players ask the same question at most PMBs
    Ball is out when it's OUT FFS!
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    This is so frustrating. No wonder coaches and players ask the same question at most PMBs
    Ball is out when it's OUT FFS!

    Yep. This is best clarification I have seen on the issue, and is one that I would expect most referees here to use.

    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
    - Jay Windley

  9. #39

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Good morning Ian, I like it also and the ball out part is easily explained.

    However:

    1. One could argue that is not written law "clear of Bodies"

    2. One could argue that the SH hands hands in the ruck and is also offside as his foot is forward of hindmost teammate. I know we allow it.

    3. What is so odd about requiring that last foot of the ruck to push the ball out or step over (similar to RL) it as the SH reaches to play it? So it is actually out. I know clarifications exist to allow SH to dig or otherwise we would have scrum after scrum.

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Ruck clarification recieved today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Kurt Weaver View Post
    Good morning Ian, I like it also and the ball out part is easily explained.

    However:

    1. One could argue that is not written law "clear of Bodies"

    2. One could argue that the SH hands hands in the ruck and is also offside as his foot is forward of hindmost teammate. I know we allow it.

    3. What is so odd about requiring that last foot of the ruck to push the ball out or step over (similar to RL) it as the SH reaches to play it? So it is actually out. I know clarifications exist to allow SH to dig or otherwise we would have scrum after scrum.

    The difference with RL is that they can afford this because the defending backline is 10 metres away, and the defending markers (the two opponents marking the player playing the ball and the dummy half) must be "square" that is, lined up directly ahead of the play-the-ball and behind one another parallel to the touchline ("markers not square" is a PK in RL)

    In RU, the defending backline is only one or two metres away, depending on how "deep" the ruck is, and in the modern game, rucks are very shallow because teams do not commit more than two or three (often less) defenders to the ruck. Consequently, the defending line is very close to the opponent's HMF.

    Were we to apply your suggestion, the acting SH would probably be scragged more often that not when he tried to clear the ball, then what sort of game would we end up with?

    What you suggest worked in the past for two reasons

    1. Rucks were much, much deeper, with more players committed by both sides, so the defending line was further away, and

    2. Players were less fit and considerably slower, so the acting SH had more time to clear.

    I mentioned that RL has the defending line 10m back. It used to be only 5m until about 20 years ago. The reason that it was changed is was precisely because they recognised that players were becoming faster, fitter and stronger, and that was resulting in it becoming too easy for defending teams to stifle the attack.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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