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Thread: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

      
  1. #31
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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    It might prevent the person standing up collapsing but not everyone else. A mass of bodies is pushing on a props ass who in turn is pushing on an opposing body. They anticipate that body taking the pressure but the opposing body suddenly stands up and changes the dynamic. How is that not possibly going to lead to a collapse.?

  2. #32

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    We have discussed this one previously and the response I got from the ARU was that standing up in the scrum is considered to be breaking your bind as in not maintaining your bind continuously from the start to finish of the scrum.
    This was communicated to me as the reasoning used by SANZAR "although tenuous as it may be".


    (a) Binding by all front row players. All front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum.
    Sanction: Penalty kick


    My comment at the time was that if it was to be penalised as breaking the bind, then the elite boys should be instructed to use the "unbinding" secondary signal rather than the made up one where the referee bends his elbow to 90 degrees and raises the forearm to imitate a standing up action
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderhorse1986 View Post
    Agreed.

    Often when "standing up" a prop will break his bind but the standing up in and of itself is not an offence, so it should not always be penalisable.

    Didds are you saying you can't push/shove something while standing up? Not as effective position to push, agreed, but surely doesn't constitute being not in a position to make a normal shove. And the sanction for this is a FK, not a penalty, just as an aside.
    I'm making a stab at what the standing up sanctions are under. Frankly, on reflection, I don't buy the stand up = break bind thing either, particularly when 20.3 definitions only mention bending to a team mate. The only binds required for props in 20.3 are solely connected to where the prop binds on the opponent and where his arm goes in regard to his oppo prop.

    Yes you can push with your chest naturally. I just don't think that is what the law makers mean when they talk about a pushing forwards position. And is certainly not what we coach in Scrum Factory CPD etc. As ever, the laws as writ need some interpretation.

    didds

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    I'm making a stab at what the standing up sanctions are under. Frankly, on reflection, I don't buy the stand up = break bind thing either, particularly when 20.3 definitions only mention bending to a team mate. The only binds required for props in 20.3 are solely connected to where the prop binds on the opponent and where his arm goes in regard to his oppo prop.

    Yes you can push with your chest naturally. I just don't think that is what the law makers mean when they talk about a pushing forwards position. And is certainly not what we coach in Scrum Factory CPD etc. As ever, the laws as writ need some interpretation.

    didds
    I agree completely in practice - I'm just being pedantic with wording. The Fat I think sums it up perfectly, but it is clear the perception lives on as Christy used the phrase in the earlier post.

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    meanwhile - thankyou The fat :-)

    didds

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post

    props don't bind on a team mate.

    didds
    Sorry but who binds on the hooker?

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    ah - fair comment of course. OK then - I don't see props standing up losing a full bind from armpit to wrist on the hooker.

    e.g.



    In this world where standing up is because of broken binds, where is the broken bind on a teammate as per the definitions, if we have to insist that its the case, rarther than just accept (as doiI) that whether right or wrong that is how WR sees it and justifies it.?




    didds

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    20.3(a) doesn't cover it.

    20.3(i) does but doesn't indicate fault or apply sanction.

    (i) Player forced upwards. If a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of
    the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

    A 2016 (?) amendment to Advantage law now allows advantage to be played if a player stands (or is forced) up unless his feet leave the ground. Although we see 'standing up' being PKd I think that is in error.
    If a front row stands up to relieve the pressure, they have unbound IMHO.

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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    If a front row stands up to relieve the pressure, they have unbound IMHO.
    from whom in what manner, under what law?

    didds

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

    Quite often both front rows are standing up so binds are maintained but it is deemed one stood up first. In these situation neither side has broken a bind.

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