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Thread: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

      
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    Default Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Hi Team,

    Relatively fresh referee here. Looking for some guidance on a situation that often arises in junior rugby.

    A mess of a ruck has culminated in bodies strewn everywhere, with the scrum half stood at the back of the ruck with the ball at his feet.

    As most of the ruck has disappeared, an opposition team member comes through where the ruck once was and is now eye to eye with the scum half (who has the ball at his feet).

    What options are available for the opposition team member at this point?

    A few yes/ no points:

    1. Touching the scum half would be tackling off the ball?
    2. Picking up the ball would be hands in the ruck (as the ball hasn't left the ruck, so the ruck hasn't concluded)?
    3. Diving over the ball would be going off his feet?
    4. If there is no ruck to bind onto, the opposition player can not join the ruck?

    So in the heat of a game with the ball seemingly there for the taking, and nothing but a scrum half in the way, do we expect a junior player to not challenge for the ball?

    Would blowing up for no binding at the ruck be everyone's option? [I can hear the groans from the parents already]

    Cheers in advance

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    If the only person on his feet is the SH and the ball is there I would expect him to pick it up and use it.

    If an opposition player came through and picked the ball up I wouldn't have a problem with that. Essentially this new player is also now an acting SH.

    If the opposition player comes through and binds onto the SH (who is over the ball) then they are both now part of the ruck. Start all over again.

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg286 View Post
    ... 4. If there is no ruck to bind onto, the opposition player can not join the ruck?
    Has he come through the middle of the ruck?

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If the only person on his feet is the SH and the ball is there I would expect him to pick it up and use it.

    If an opposition player came through and picked the ball up I wouldn't have a problem with that. Essentially this new player is also now an acting SH.

    If the opposition player comes through and binds onto the SH (who is over the ball) then they are both now part of the ruck. Start all over again.

    Hi Phil,

    I agree, the SH should use it - but this is junior rugby. Sometimes the obvious escapes them.

    Would you be able to explain to me why a SH is allowed to come through a ruck and pick the ball up from the back foot of the opposition's side of the ruck? I assumed a SH could only pick up when there team has obviously won the ball.

    Does grabbing someone who is not in the ruck and dragging them into a ruck not break a law?

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    Has he come through the middle of the ruck?

    He has come through the middle of where the ruck used to be, but there wasn't anyone to ruck against. He just sort of jogged through.

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg286 View Post
    Would you be able to explain to me why a SH is allowed to come through a ruck and pick the ball up from the back foot of the opposition's side of the ruck? I assumed a SH could only pick up when there team has obviously won the ball.
    If no one is over the ball and everyone is on the floor or stood behind the ball then its there for the taking.

    Does grabbing someone who is not in the ruck and dragging them into a ruck not break a law?
    You said the SH was stood over the ball, so he is part of the ruck.

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Clarification 3 of 2007
    Request
    1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?

    Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
    A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters in goal i.e. on or over the goal line.

    A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.


    As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If no one is over the ball and everyone is on the floor or stood behind the ball then its there for the taking.
    Would you be able to expand on this point, it isn't clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    You said the SH was stood over the ball, so he is part of the ruck.
    Perhaps my wording is sloppy on this point. The SH is stood with the ball in front of his toes, not quite over it. He did not touch any players in the ruck, when is was still standing.

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    Clarification 3 of 2007
    Request
    1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?

    Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
    A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters in goal i.e. on or over the goal line.

    A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.


    As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.
    This was my understanding, but of the point I mentioned above, would you be able to tell me what you would have done?

    I'm guessing penalty to scrum half's team, but how would you word what the penalty in for?

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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If no one is over the ball and everyone is on the floor or stood behind the ball then its there for the taking.
    Quote Originally Posted by mpg286 View Post
    Would you be able to expand on this point, it isn't clear to me.
    Lets say everyone involved in the ruck has gone to ground and then rolled out of the way. Technically it's still a ruck, but you could also say both teams have won it and neither team has won it. The ball is just sitting there. Do you really want to wait for people from either side to bind on over the ball again and then see who wins the pushing contest?

    Or do you just want someone to pick it up so we can get on with the game?

    Perhaps my wording is sloppy on this point. The SH is stood with the ball in front of his toes, not quite over it. He did not touch any players in the ruck, when is was still standing.
    There is nothing to stop the opposition driving over and pushing the SH off the ball. Once its won they can pick it up. Binding onto the SH and driving is legal, and totally different from grabbing him with one hand and dragging him in.

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    We are looking to keep the game flowing.
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    Default Re: Counter-rucking after the ruck has become a pile of bodies on the floor

    unsuccessful end to a ruck?

    bodies all over the floor suggests there is no ruck left in reality (as we see constantly on TV etc)...

    To reach this position there has possibly been one of these...



    16.3 Rucking
    (a)
    Players in a ruck must endeavour to stay on their feet.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    (b)
    A player must not intentionally fall or kneel in a ruck. This is dangerous play.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    (c)
    A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck. This is dangerous play.
    Sanction: Penalty kick


    16.4 Other ruck offences
    (d)
    Players on the ground in or near the ruck must try to move away from the ball. These players must not interfere with the ball in the ruck or as it comes out of the ruck.
    Sanction: Penalty kick


    and then there is this

    16.7 Unsuccessful end to a ruck
    (c)
    When the ball has been clearly won by a team at a ruck and the ball is available to be played the referee will call "Use it!" after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball at the ruck is awarded the throw-in


    Did none of those fit the situation?

    If you aren't going to penalise somebody for the first bunch then at least the final bit must apply - "Use It!" ?

    didds

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