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Thread: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

      
  1. #31
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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    a bit of a disappointing post. Subtext to new poster: don't waste our time with your trivial questions.
    Your subtext is nonsense. It would, however, be helpful if the first point of call was the law book. There is a clue in the terms "Knock On" and "Throw Forward".


    I askedthe Question: "Why would you think that?" (paraphrase) because I am interested why anybody would consider it to have been illegal.

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    The incident in the Bath - Ulster game - the ball leaves the players hands backwards and is not touched by anyone else before hitting the ground and bouncing forward - it's play on.

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    For me it is acceptance that you have lost control.
    I appreciate your point and a few years ago would not have made the comment I did. However, with guidance now being that you are in possession of the ball while ‘juggling’ and capable of being tackled etc, and being allowed to gather no matter how many times you knock the ball forward before gathering, it seems to me that we have to say for the sake of consistency of decision making that the ball carrier is showing some degree of control. We frequently see the ball being tapped/batted backwards immediately without any attempt to catch or gain absolute control when a player is under pressure from a tackler/defender. I don’t think we can use the ‘juggle’ as a reason to prevent/penalise a tap back, afterall he is deemed to be in possession. I could go on but I think you would get the gist of what I am suggesting from what I have written.

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I appreciate your point and a few years ago would not have made the comment I did. However, with guidance now being that you are in possession of the ball while ‘juggling’ and capable of being tackled etc, and being allowed to gather no matter how many times you knock the ball forward before gathering, it seems to me that we have to say for the sake of consistency of decision making that the ball carrier is showing some degree of control. We frequently see the ball being tapped/batted backwards immediately without any attempt to catch or gain absolute control when a player is under pressure from a tackler/defender. I don’t think we can use the ‘juggle’ as a reason to prevent/penalise a tap back, afterall he is deemed to be in possession. I could go on but I think you would get the gist of what I am suggesting from what I have written.
    If the juggler is not deemed to be in possession, then the juggler cannot be legally tackled. Putting the onus on the defender to make such a distinction when timing the tackle attempt is harsh, to say the least.

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Firstly, welcome to the forum, Norman Hurst. I wonder if you were at the Rec on Saturday?
    Something similar to what you described, happened on the run in for Ulster’s second try.

    Time stamp 43 seconds into these very short highlights. 58 minutes of play, if any one has the full match video. Rights restrictions mean viewing is in French. And possibly, will prevent you from watching this clip.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 18-11-19 at 15:11.
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  6. #36

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Your subtext is nonsense. It would, however, be helpful if the first point of call was the law book. There is a clue in the terms "Knock On" and "Throw Forward".


    I askedthe Question: "Why would you think that?" (paraphrase) because I am interested why anybody would consider it to have been illegal.
    A number of us reached exactly the same view point as Dickie......

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I appreciate your point and a few years ago would not have made the comment I did. However, with guidance now being that you are in possession of the ball while ‘juggling’ and capable of being tackled etc, and being allowed to gather no matter how many times you knock the ball forward before gathering, it seems to me that we have to say for the sake of consistency of decision making that the ball carrier is showing some degree of control. We frequently see the ball being tapped/batted backwards immediately without any attempt to catch or gain absolute control when a player is under pressure from a tackler/defender. I don’t think we can use the ‘juggle’ as a reason to prevent/penalise a tap back, afterall he is deemed to be in possession. I could go on but I think you would get the gist of what I am suggesting from what I have written.
    A player juggling the ball is deemed to be in sufficient possession to justify tackling him for obvious practical reasons.

    However he clearly does not have control. If he loses the ball forward and fails to recover it, it makes sense to say it was a knock-on since he has failed to recover it.

    The wording in Law 11 is not very helpful
    It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

    So it is not an intentional knock-on leaving open the question of an unintentional knock-on - which he has failed to recover.

    The tapped pass is different: the player did not juggle the ball and at no stage did the ball go forward from his hand (if it did, that is a forward pass).

    I agree the law is not clear.
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  8. #38

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    I'm going to propose Stimpson's Law. It works the same way as Godwin's Law, except that instead of Nazis and Hitler, it's about how long a thread about knocks-on and juggling can go before someone mentions Tim Stimpson.
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  9. #39

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Ob... I don’t think we are far from each other. I just take my position from the fact that the tap back from a knock-on is difficult to adjudge unequivocally. How long must the hand be in contact with the ball to say it was a tap rather than a quickly guided pass? What if the juggler makes the same decision to tap rather than catch instead of be tackled just as the first pass situation. Must a juggler always catch and control in this situation as opposed to what might be seen by spectators as quick thinking slick handling? I accept there is a difference between this and tapping in a desperate attempt to prevent the ball going to ground. It’s achieving consistency that is the problem and creating a thought process that is easy to apply quickly for referees. I don’t like rewarding careless or sloppy skills but consistently differentiating consistently between what could be a skillful tap and a desperate ‘get out of jail’ action is not possible in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Thrown Backwards, Bounces Forwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Ob... I don’t think we are far from each other. I just take my position from the fact that the tap back from a knock-on is difficult to adjudge unequivocally. How long must the hand be in contact with the ball to say it was a tap rather than a quickly guided pass? What if the juggler makes the same decision to tap rather than catch instead of be tackled just as the first pass situation. Must a juggler always catch and control in this situation as opposed to what might be seen by spectators as quick thinking slick handling? I accept there is a difference between this and tapping in a desperate attempt to prevent the ball going to ground. It’s achieving consistency that is the problem and creating a thought process that is easy to apply quickly for referees. I don’t like rewarding careless or sloppy skills but consistently differentiating consistently between what could be a skillful tap and a desperate ‘get out of jail’ action is not possible in my opinion.
    Wouldn't reverting to the Laws of the game easily rectify the difficulties you refer to and allow for consistency and ease of application ie did the ball travel forward from the hand or arm and if so it's a knock on if not then play on!

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