Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

      
  1. #1

    Referees in England
    Blindpugh's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    HRURS
    Grade
    6 - Retired
    Join Date
    03 Aug 07
    Posts
    227

    Default Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    On Saturday our scrum half was penalised when we were in possession and attacking towards end of first half. Referee signalled backchat and I thought fair enough I have warned players that RFU want referees to clamp down on this especially appealing for holding on and you have not listened.

    After match I asked our scrum half why he had been penalised again for backchat?

    He said that opposition scrum half would often stand at base of his scrum and not next to him (scrum half in possession) or retire to 5 metres. (Scrum Law 19.28). This negated our move where we use channel one quick ball, eight picks up and we attack blindside.

    He said he raised point of law with referee through his captain but referee said he was allowed to stand there?

    This had a material effect on game. What advice would you give captain because it is too late to discuss point of law in the bar afterwards?

  2. #2

    Referees in England
    Balones's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Leics
    Grade
    NLMOT PR
    Join Date
    24 Oct 06
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Ref and player are both partially correct and it is down to timing.
    Laws 19.28a and 19.30b apply.
    At the start of the scrum the defending S/H should be by the tunnel and once the ball is in can move to the back of the scrum. Your S/H was probably correct if the defensive S/H was standing at the base of the scrum prior to throw in. But you’ll probably agree that if the referee thinks there is no problem then it’s a case of leave it alone and grt in with the game and not get penalised for ‘aggravation’. We all know that even international referees make mistakes.
    Last edited by Balones; 07-01-20 at 20:01. Reason: Typo

  3. #3

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    10,484

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    yep. for defending s/h's there are aiui 3 possible offide lines...

    the ball
    the line of the rear feet on his/her own side
    5m back from rear feet of own side.

    Once theyve dropped back form rear feet they have to move to >= 5m.

    I confess I dunno if having moved to rear feet theyc an then return to the ball (on the putting in side) - Id suspect not.

    didds

  4. #4

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    13,187

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindpugh View Post
    This had a material effect on game.
    It's probably a moot point as the SH can retire to behind his own #8 as soon as the ball is fed.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  5. #5

    Referees in England
    Blindpugh's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    HRURS
    Grade
    6 - Retired
    Join Date
    03 Aug 07
    Posts
    227

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Dickie, Balones and Didds - many thanks for your helpful contributions.

    The important law for referee to decide where a scrum half must stand before scrum starts must be 19.16 i.e. The scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrum-half.

    My understanding and application of this law (when I refereed at senior level) was before scrum started to apply 19.28 i.e. - Prior to the start of play in the scrum, the scrum-half of the team not throwing in the ball stands:

    a. On that team’s side of the middle line next to the opposing scrum-half, or
    b. At least five metres behind the hindmost foot of their team’s last player in the scrum and remains there until the completion of the scrum.

    Once play in the scrum begins (i.e. when the ball leaves hands of the scrum-half hands)
    19.30 applies ie. the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
    a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight or
    b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
    c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

    I was once told there are over 80 infringements at a scrum that a referee can award a free kick or penalty for but we must decide if it is material or to manage.

    My main question is how does a captain/ player question a referees interpretation of a law without getting into trouble?

    I agree referees make mistakes (alot less than players) but this was material and had an impact upon the game and it is no good discussing in bar after the game.
    Last edited by Blindpugh; 08-01-20 at 12:01.

  6. #6

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    19,270

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    What mistake do you think the ref made though ?
    He let him retire to the back feet a little early ?

    Becasue once the ball is in he is allowed to stand at back foot

    Its not really very material

  7. #7

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    10,484

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    What mistake do you think the ref made though ?
    He let him retire to the back feet a little early ?

    Becasue once the ball is in he is allowed to stand at back foot

    Its not really very material
    welll... that rather depends... as per the OP (as it happens!) a quick heel and 8 pick up go right has a numbers advantage (basic caveats apply). However IF the oppo s/half can START on the line of the rear feet before the ball comes in then that advantage has disappeared - it saves the s/half having to move from the right side of the scrum to the left to take up that position.

    So its material arguably in that it either

    * negates the tactical numerical advantage
    * removes that tactical option before the scrum even starts.

    the degree of materialism considered probably depends on one's own thoughts and appreciation etc

    didds

  8. #8

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    19,270

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    I guess .. and I do always tell the SH to stand alongside until ball goes in

  9. #9

    Referees in England
    Blindpugh's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    HRURS
    Grade
    6 - Retired
    Join Date
    03 Aug 07
    Posts
    227

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    welll... that rather depends... as per the OP (as it happens!) a quick heel and 8 pick up go right has a numbers advantage (basic caveats apply). However IF the oppo s/half can START on the line of the rear feet before the ball comes in then that advantage has disappeared - it saves the s/half having to move from the right side of the scrum to the left to take up that position.

    So its material arguably in that it either

    * negates the tactical numerical advantage
    * removes that tactical option before the scrum even starts.

    the degree of materialism considered probably depends on one's own thoughts and appreciation etc

    didds
    Spot on Didds. As a former hooker I know a quick strike will give No.8 opportunity to pick up and go. If defending scrum half is stood at rear of scrum (before scrum starts) then he can see where 8 goes and act as an additional backrow and also inform his defence.

    If he stands at centre of tunnel (where the law states) then he is unlikley to have time to get around blindside in time to act as another defender.

    To put game in context this was a RFU National League game and final score was a difference of 9 points (to offending team's scrum half). There were a number of occassions when this happened which should have resulted in a kickable penalty at goal.

    Very material in my book but what do you do when referee interpretation is different?
    Last edited by Blindpugh; 08-01-20 at 15:01.

  10. #10

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    10,484

    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    as an aside ... its why when scrums are either totally dominant or (more likely) when non contested I'm surprised more teams dont put the ball in on the tight head side to promote the left side advantage when appropriate.

    didds

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •