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Thread: All blacks third try tackled or not?

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy View Post
    All good for me .
    Are you talking about yellow 15 ,, close to 22 .
    Not held for me & play on
    Agree.

    On slow mo, Gold 15 is losing his grip before Black 11's knee touches the ground, and then doesn't hold him.... not held, play on.

    I have seen so many tackles in the elite game over the last four or five years that were far more obviously "brought to ground and held" than this one. IMO, pinging this would have been extremely harsh, and not consistent with current rulings at this level.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 19-10-20 at 05:10.
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  2. #12

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    A tackle for me. Frames 4.11 and 4.12. If we expect a tackler to release immediately then we must reward them for doing so after they have made a good tackle. Otherwise they end up hanging on for a bit longer. And also get penalised?
    I agree ,

  3. #13

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    caleb.jpg

    I know stills can be deceptive but it looks like a tackle to me. Knee on ground and tackler in contact.

    Although in real time I'd possibly allow play on. But I think that it would be an error.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  4. #14

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    caleb.jpg

    I know stills can be deceptive but it looks like a tackle to me. Knee on ground and tackler in contact.

    Although in real time I'd possibly allow play on. But I think that it would be an error.
    That about sums it up. Yes it was a tackle and should have been penalised in theory. Would an official be certain enough to call it at full speed and without a clear view of all angles? Doubtful, and not under TMO protocol. So even if it was an error by the officials I can understand why it was allowed to play on.

  5. #15
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    My gut reaction was play on, at full speed I didn’t see any slow in momentum or movement from the ball carrier to suggest he’d been held on the ground, looked like he was able to just keep on going - get all the other points though, either or

  6. #16

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    The law is ‘held and brought to ground’. This would suggest that holding and remaining in contact as the player is brought to ground is the correct way to apply the law. As a tackler, I would expect as a coach, be expecting you to get to your feet ASAP so as to compete if possible, as well as assist in getting away so as not to be penalised and may be be able to fulfil other defending duties such as covering or making another tackle. A good defender would know when he (she) has completed the tackle (brought carrier to ground) as it is progressing so a releasing of grip (not contact) in readiness for moving or getting to feet is part of the automatic process of good tacklers/defenders and something I believe should be rewarded as much as possible. A quick release is conducive to good quick ball as well which is what we are looking for so that good support play is also rewarded. It is a balancing act between the two I appreciate.

    For those not already bored by what I have written I can briefly outline what I would do in such circumstances if reviewing the referee performance.
    I am fortunate enough to have access to at least one video of my games against which I have to review the game. Sometimes I have access to two and increasingly so, three. At times the opposition video is available also which provides a different angle quite often; perhaps from the opposite side of the pitch. In the incident we are discussing I would look at it from as many views as I could and decide if it was a tackle of not. (I have concluded that it was.) I would then look at such things as the positioning of the officials and their viewpoint to assess what they might have seen themselves. Depending what I find out I would make a decision over whether I felt the officials were at fault and could have done something different. Including better positioning or running line etc. The incident we are discussing was a critical decision (or non-decision) so in the report the referee would be asked to review it and a number of questions asked. If I couldn’t be sure if it was a clear and obvious error then that is an end to it and leave it for the referee to discuss with his coach and peers. It was one of hundreds of decisions made in the game. Unfortunate possibly for the opposition, but then we all make mistakes, such is the nature of the game. Generally referees even at community level make far fewer than the players!

    If this was how a certain referee interprets the law all the time then the sides at this level would question the referee about it pre-match and the coaches would get their players to adapt appropriately. What they would get upset about is if the referee doesn’t apply the law as he said he would or was inconsistent.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    All correct, my point was that you need to use the input available to you to make a decision as to whether that person has been held and brought to ground, 9 times out 10 that will involve the ball carriers speed and momentum slowing as they come to ground, I didn’t see that so that’s a significant clue steering me in another direction.

    You’re possible being a bit generous as to coaches motivations, we’d like to think they want a quick release so they can contest, but the cynic in me suggests that they just want to paint that picture, whilst also slowing the attacking team down with as much as they can get away with, if that means an extra second holding on I think many will try it, it’s a risk, but I would be the mortgage it’s a conversation that’s happened.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    I appreciate what you are saying about coaches and delay etc. All I would say is that the delay looks a bit more obvious at the highest levels so does get penalised more often. (As opposed to the less fit/agile player lower down that simply can’t get out of the way quickly.) Referees at the top level are very aware of the ‘second’ delay tactic and are quite strict in the application of the law. Coaches at the top end of the game get more upset at the referee not being strict on players not releasing or getting away than the referee that penalises their player for not rolling. At the very top of the game players get penalised if they end up on the wrong side so try desperately to not end up there or release very quickly. A coach does expect his players to ‘delay’ if possible in certain situations and hopes that the referee is generous or misses it. However if the referee does penalise or even card the player then it’s quite often a shrug of the shoulders and a ‘one of things’ approach. Again the biggest bugbear is a referee not being consistent.

  9. #19

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    This didn't look clear and obvious to me, and even in slow motion, I still think that while 15 Gold might have had his left hand in contact, he wasn't holding the player; his hand was always slipping off. As I said earlier, there have been many more obvious cases of players looking like they have been tackled but being allowed to play on than this one.

    Additionally, it is notable that, given the amount of arm waving teams do these days for the slightest perceived infringement by the opposition, not one Australian complained about it, or even asked the referee about it when the try was scored. Neither of the AR's said anything either, and the try was scored only after the next phase play so was within the TMO's remit to look and bring it to the attention of AG..... crickets!
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  10. #20

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    Default Re: All blacks third try tackled or not?

    A still frame at 4.11 shows that his hand was still pulling on the shirt of the ball carrier. I would also say that ‘held’ is not simply a hand grip. He was held by the whole arm of the tackler.
    I revert to what I was saying about possible referee position/view. Where was AG? He was left flat-footed by the winger changing direction and having to take avoidance action. He closed up as the tackle was made but will not have seen the left arm of the tackler. (Couldn’t see AR but he would not have seen the arm either.) He also had some players between him and the tackle. He would have been guessing if he blew. He had to play on.
    A tackle in theory - yes.
    Coukd the referee have done anything else - probably not.
    Outcome - unfortunate for defending side. That’s life/rugby.

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