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Thread: knock on in touch

      
  1. #1

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    Default knock on in touch

    https://www.facebook.com/messenger_m...WSlF1pyA1GLXEo

    Hoping this video comes up.

    One for the law purists. Black kick for touch. Gold player dives over touch line to knock ball back in but only knocks the ball forward. What's the restart? Scrum/lineout option to Black?
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  2. #2

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    Can't view video
    By your description .
    If ball has crossed plane of touch .

    Restart = line out for gold at place where ball crossed line .
    Or back at place of kick , if out side 22 or inside 22 if taken back inside 22 by black

  3. #3
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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    I can't see video either.

    As per Christy's assumptions plus Gold player is in the air, and ball comes back into playing area directly off Gold:
    1. It's not a knock on because the knock didn't take place in the playing area (11.1)
    2. You've said it's not deliberate knock forward already, so no penalty for that (11.3)
    4. Ball has been kept in play under the touch law (assumption) (18.2.c)

    So play on!����

  4. #4

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/messenger_m...WSlF1pyA1GLXEo

    Hoping this video comes up.

    One for the law purists. Black kick for touch. Gold player dives over touch line to knock ball back in but only knocks the ball forward. What's the restart? Scrum/lineout option to Black?

    Logically (as I see it)

    1. Kick in General play
    a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
    b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Gold

    2. Kick from a PK
    a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
    b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Black

    Rationale.

    The ball is still in play across the plane of touch and in flight until the conditions for touch are met, therefore a knock on can still be valid.

    1a and 2a are just knocks forward
    1b is in touch, but the kicker put it there
    2b was not kicked directly to touch, but Gold put the ball in touch anyway (last player to play the ball)
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 08-11-20 at 19:11.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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  5. #5

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    Thanks all. Sorry about the video. The incident occurred in the 12th minute of Bledisloe 4.

    It was as described by Ian's 2(b) and I like Treadmore's point about knock on only in playing area.

    Here is a blurry still. Reece Hodge attempts (unsuccessfully) to knock ball back into play:

    hodge.jpg
    Last edited by Dickie E; 08-11-20 at 20:11.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  6. #6
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    The moment he touches the ball it’s in touch is it not? So just a plain old lineout?

  7. #7

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    I agree with Ian Cook.

    The legalistic argument that a knock-on can only take place in the field of play is a red herring. The legalistic refutation is that since the ball is not technically in touch, the only other option is to to infer that it must still be in the field of play (and the definition of Field of Play is incomplete/insufficient).

    The common sense view is simply that the law says you you can play on. If the ball went forward, then Advantage my be played or denied as usual.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  8. #8

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    I agree with Ian Cook.

    The legalistic argument that a knock-on can only take place in the field of play is a red herring. The legalistic refutation is that since the ball is not technically in touch, the only other option is to to infer that it must still be in the field of play (and the definition of Field of Play is incomplete/insufficient).

    The common sense view is simply that the law says you you can play on. If the ball went forward, then Advantage my be played or denied as usual.
    Logically (as I see it)
    1. Kick in General play
    a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
    b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Gold

    2. Kick from a PK
    a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
    b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Black

    Rationale.
    The ball is still in play across the plane of touch and in flight until the conditions for touch are met, therefore a knock on can still be valid.
    OB, which bit do you agree with?

    In the OP, the event is as per Ian's 2(b) which he says is a line-out (ie not a scrum option). But he then goes on to say that a knock on can be valid which I infer to mean that Black should be given the scrum/lineout option.

    Just to make the OP crystal: Black take a PK kick for touch that directly (ie on the full) crosses plane of touch. Gold player dives over the touchline, and while in the air and before ball alights, attempts to knock ball back into FoP. He gets a hand to the ball but is only able to knock the ball forward and ball lands in touch.

    What is restart? Lineout to Black or lineout/scrum option to Black?
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  9. #9

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    OB, which bit do you agree with?

    In the OP, the event is as per Ian's 2(b) which he says is a line-out (ie not a scrum option). But he then goes on to say that a knock on can be valid which I infer to mean that Black should be given the scrum/lineout option.

    Just to make the OP crystal: Black take a PK kick for touch that directly (ie on the full) crosses plane of touch. Gold player dives over the touchline, and while in the air and before ball alights, attempts to knock ball back into FoP. He gets a hand to the ball but is only able to knock the ball forward and ball lands in touch.

    What is restart? Lineout to Black or lineout/scrum option to Black?
    Yes, that was my mistake. 2b should have been a line-out/scrum option to black because the Gold player effectively knocked the ball forward into touch.

    For those who believe that a knock can only take place with the confines of playing area, please answer this for me.

    A ball in play can only be in the playing area or in touch, it cannot be anywhere else. If a ball in flight is across the touchline, but hasn't yet met the conditions to actually be "in touch" under the laws of the game, and you don't believe it is in the playing area, then where is it?
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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  10. #10

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    Default Re: knock on in touch

    I've had confirmation from our ARU law guru that scrum / lineout option is correct restart
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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