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Thread: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

      
  1. #1

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    Default Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    Thinking about the debate the Johnny May try has created I think world rugby need to look at this and clarify what constitutes a fair competition.

    If Johnny May had caught the Italian defender with his knee, he would have been penalised and possibly yellow or red carded for dangerous play.

    If the Italian defender had caught him as he jumped and tackled him into touch it would probably be a penalty try and yellow card.

    I know the laws can’t cover every scenario but some clarification would help.

    For me now, any attacker who thinks they may be caught by covering defence as they go for the line, all they have to do, is jump in the air and they will be rewarded, that has to be wrong.
    Not only are they endangering themselves but also defenders and just because a collision didn’t occur it can’t be right to ignore it.

    On a wet day if an attacker tries a 5m Slide they have deliberately gone off their feet in open play, would it be reasonable for a defender to go off their feet to try to block the slide?

    The game has always been about fair competition. (obviousy ignoring 1st class scrums 😊 )

    I’ve seen players red carded for throwing a haymaker that just missed and nobody argued with that decision.

    These things should not be outcome based.
    Ciaran Trainor

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    Rugby Club Member Lex Hipkins's Avatar

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    Quote Originally Posted by ctrainor View Post
    Thinking about the debate the Johnny May try has created I think world rugby need to look at this and clarify what constitutes a fair competition.

    If Johnny May had caught the Italian defender with his knee, he would have been penalised and possibly yellow or red carded for dangerous play.

    If the Italian defender had caught him as he jumped and tackled him into touch it would probably be a penalty try and yellow card.

    I know the laws can’t cover every scenario but some clarification would help.

    For me now, any attacker who thinks they may be caught by covering defence as they go for the line, all they have to do, is jump in the air and they will be rewarded, that has to be wrong.
    Not only are they endangering themselves but also defenders and just because a collision didn’t occur it can’t be right to ignore it.

    On a wet day if an attacker tries a 5m Slide they have deliberately gone off their feet in open play, would it be reasonable for a defender to go off their feet to try to block the slide?

    The game has always been about fair competition. (obviousy ignoring 1st class scrums �� )

    I’ve seen players red carded for throwing a haymaker that just missed and nobody argued with that decision.

    These things should not be outcome based.
    I disagree that the second possibility would have occurred. If the Italian play had successfully tackled him into touch when he had jumped (or dived - semantics) then in my opinion that would have been ball in touch and play on. Whereas if May had clipped the tackler with a trailing leg then I agree that would have been a penalty to Italy. The risk is therefore all with the ball carrier. As it happens this time the risk paid off but could have gone against England. The Italian player trying to make the tackle had nothing to lose.

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    If you play the incident in slo-mo it does look as if one of JM’s boots did ‘clip’ the tacklers head.

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    If you play the incident in slo-mo it does look as if one of JM’s boots did ‘clip’ the tacklers head.
    i thought that - but strangely the conversation between the TMO and ref didn't even mention this possibility. They seemed totally focussed on touch, never discussed if the dive was OK or not, never discussed the possibility of head contact

  5. #5

    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    Is Nigel Owen's still reffing professionally in the Pro 14?

    If so surely he needs to pipe down with his implied criticism of the officials over the last few weeks.

    He's piling in on twitter about the May try and is having a pop in the Daily Mail https://www.rugbydump.com/news/nigel...ree-back-chat/ about Farrell's back chat and (gasp) how much better he was than the match official on the day.

    Surely he needs to retire quickly if he wants to be a talking head?

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    https://youtu.be/L3s796b43hA

    Here it is .. does the boot clip the head ?
    TMO and ref don't even consider it

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    Or rather than clip the tackler's head with the boot, does the tackler just headbutt his boot? Seeing as May was already well past the point of tackle by that time?

    purely devils advocate/alternative view.

    I think its an area of the game that cannot be legislated for really. Once you start describing a jump for the line as illegal (for instance) you now have to wonder what happens with regards kick passes caught with a jump and that subsequantly lands in goal for a try? Or a hurdled jump to evade a prone body?

    and when does a jump become a dive? Or do we also outlaw dives? So when does a dive become a loss of footing in the wet?

    I think its just easier to leave refs with the dangerous play law and let them make a sensible decsion based on that. We can't legislate for everything.

    didds

  8. #8

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    The basic actions of hurdling a tackler and diving for the line are different. The former raises a distinct likelihood of boot meeting head when they are travelling in different directions. The latter does not.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    It would have been interesting to know what the decision would have been if the ‘tackler’ had not got up so quickly or had had blood drawn. Generally we don’t want outcome decisions being made so we could do with some degree of explanation from WR so as to provide guidance even if it does come down to a referee decision/interpretation as to what is dangerous play. What we need is a word from WR outlining what they consider a dive rather than a jump and dive to avoid a tackle. In this incident the ref probably felt he had no options but to consider it as a dive because of no precedence. Your average community ref needs to have a bit more guidance so that when it happens on their pitch and an ambulance needs to be called they can make a decision that everyone can support.

    I was writing the above as OB.. was posting. Exactly the point.
    Last edited by Balones; 15-02-21 at 18:02.

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Jumping or Diving Clarification required

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    The basic actions of hurdling a tackler and diving for the line are different. The former raises a distinct likelihood of boot meeting head when they are travelling in different directions. The latter does not.
    But May was clearly diving, not hurdling - and yet still his boot met the tackler's head (or was millimeters from it)

    So are we really to say that one is dangerous, and the other isn't?

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