Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

[thepercy]

Now this is the sort of discussion I like!
It should be knocks-on and not knock-ons. Or knockons. So how would you pluralise knock on?

Is it Knocked-on, and Knocking-on ?

[thepercy]

I think the key part is defining 'catch', because this is what is needed to negate the ball being hit forward. Can you catch the ball with 1 hand or are 2 required. Is there a time requirement? Can you catch a ball for a fraction of a second? Does redirecting the ball count as a catch? Is there a control component needed? Can you catch the ball with a fist, or the back of the hand, or arms without hands, or just a finger tip or 2?

[belladonna]

Seems like discussion has been around for a while...
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-17273.html

[Dickie E]

I have sent a follow up question about the definition of ‘possession’ and the matter of ‘control’, as outlined above in previous posts. I’ll keep everyone updated if I get a response. This may take some time while NO is getting further clarification himself and views the WB video.

a corollary. Using Belladonna's stills in #142, if Red 14 had then fallen over the goal line while maintaining continuous contact (ie no daylight) between hand/finger & ball, would that be a try?

[Balones]

a corollary. Using Belladonna's stills in #142, if Red 14 had then fallen over the goal line while maintaining continuous contact (ie no daylight) between hand/finger & ball, would that be a try?

Honestly Dickie? I haven’t got a clue!
From what we’ve seen, experienced and discussed lately anything could happen and quite frankly I’d be just happy that Wales get the benefit of any decision.

[crossref]

Seems like discussion has been around for a while...
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-17273.html

to be specific- the thread question was the juggle-and-bat-back scenario

interestingly the majority opinion here (forcefully expressed) was the NO view (knock on) but I suspect it is going to be the WB view that prevails - (not a knock on).

has convention/understanding changed ? or were we all wrong back then

[Marc Wakeham]

Can you catch the ball with 1 hand or are 2 required

The answer is either. Clearly so to anyone who ever watches cricket or indeed rugby.

Is there a time requirement? Can you catch a ball for a fraction of a second? Does redirecting the ball count as a catch? Is there a control component needed?

You need to "hold" the ball long enough for control to be evident Slapping the ball back is not catching it.

Can you catch the ball with a fist, or the back of the hand, or arms without hands, or just a finger tip or 2?

Yes (with difficulty).
Highly unlikely.
Yes.
With difficulty

[Rich_NL]

Ah ok. But a forward pass is not?

Correct - it used to be confusing, so they defined a forward pass (in the Definitions) such that it's when the arms move forward - i.e. relative to the player.

[Balones]

Ok. I asked Nigel about the definition of ‘possession’ as this seemed to be central to the issue and the word used in the laws. His response was as follows.

I would think that the definitions on Possession means that you cant juggle it forward then knock it back as you must regain control of it
It’s a bit of a grey area but that’s the way I will be advising refereeing here in Wales to referee it. Its straight forward and easy to follow. Common sense

[crossref]

Ok. I asked Nigel about the definition of ‘possession’ as this seemed to be central to the issue and the word used in the laws. His response was as follows.

I would think that the definitions on Possession means that you cant juggle it forward then knock it back as you must regain control of it
It’s a bit of a grey area but that’s the way I will be advising refereeing here in Wales to referee it. Its straight forward and easy to follow. Common sense

Out on the park this Saturday somewhere in Wales ... (or this september whenever we it is we are allowed back)

Red 10, in the middle of the field juggles the ball and bats the ball backwards where it is picked up by red teammate

- a competent referee could certainly sell : peep 'knock on' scrum blue . No one would complain, but quite likely someone would ask about it in the bar after ... as it's an interesting one.

- a competent referee could certainly sell a loud shout of 'play on! backwards!'. No one would complain, but quite likely someone would ask about it in the bar after ... as it's an interesting one.

- a poor referee might allow play to continue but say nothing, leaving some players a bit confused .. hang on ... wasn't that...??


So Nigel's advice to refs in Wales seems sensible ...

BUT ....
- move the scenario to incident near the try line, where a try is scored.. and there is a TMO.. and it's on TV ... then we really, really need to know exactly what the actual Law actually is...