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Thread: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

      
  1. #121

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    So using the WB criteria the ref and TMO were correct because after the knock forward the ball was definitely knocked back by the other hand.
    What a mess! WR certainly need to clear this up with a definitive statement and explanation, but I very much doubt they will based on their previous record on such things.

    Despite any thoughts on any possible errors the referee may have made I think we can say that he still made far fewer mistakes than the players!
    If a national Union asks for a clarification are WR obligated to provide a response? Or can they choose not to make a ruling?

  2. #122

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    If a national Union asks for a clarification are WR obligated to provide a response? Or can they choose not to make a ruling?
    I think that WR would only make ruling if they think the Law is unclear. They ae not going to get involved in whether the ball hit his finger or his knee, or went down or forwards

    Perhaps WB video on the Law IS a world rugby message

  3. #123

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I think that WR would only make ruling if they think the Law is unclear. They ae not going to get involved in whether the ball hit his finger or his knee, or went down or forwards

    Perhaps WB video on the Law IS a world rugby message
    I was thinking more along the lines of:

    The RFU is asking the distinguished members of the WR Laws Committee for clarification regarding Law 11 Knock-on, and 'Knock-on' listed in the definitions: (A) If a Player hits the ball forward with hand or arm, and then subsequently knocks or guides the ball back, is this a knock-on? (B)Does it matter if the ball lands on the ground or touches another player in front of the place where initially knocked forward? Video from ENG v WAL 6 Nations attached for reference.

    WR LC Clarification #1 2021
    (A) No, only the last action is relevant as a player attempting to control the ball is deemed to be in possession of the ball.
    (B) No, the distance from the initial forward contact is not relevant if the player was attempting to control the ball and they are deemed to be in possession until it is played back.

    OR

    (A) Yes, knocking or guiding back does not constitute catching the ball.
    (B) No amount of knocking the ball back cancels a knock-on, only the player who initially knocked the ball forward catching the ball before it contacts the ground or another player can cancel the knock-on.

    or something else?

  4. #124

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Well - Nigel Owens' whistle watch is actually an official WR publication, so presumably what he says is aligned to WR views

    NO explains it here -

    https://youtu.be/HZKf0_cycBc?t=277



    Interestingly he directly contradicts WB's video as St Nige says that losing control, and then batting backwards IS knock on.
    Last edited by crossref; 03-03-21 at 22:03.

  5. #125

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Yes. Directly contradicts the Youtube video by WB. This has the WR logo on it so can we assume that this has been sanctioned by them and is the correct interpretation of the law? In which case should WB/RFU issue a correction or at least remove the WB Youtube version from the internet? Perhaps the To3 and TMO had only seen the WB video!

  6. #126

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Yes. Directly contradicts the Youtube video by WB. This has the WR logo on it so can we assume that this has been sanctioned by them and is the correct interpretation of the law? In which case should WB/RFU issue a correction or at least remove the WB Youtube version from the internet? Perhaps the To3 and TMO had only seen the WB video!
    what a mess.

    I would rather doubt that Nigel's content is officially vetted for Laws accuracy, by WR's official Laws dept. I just don't think WR operates that way, I would suspect NO's videos are produced in the media department. (cf years ago when the RFU accidentally legalised leggings in an unvetted magazine article).

    Having said that, I am not saying Nigel is 'wrong'. Who knows what the official WR view is? But hopefully we'll find out.

    The WR logo complicates things. I would guess
    - if WR decide WB is wrong, they'll get him to do a correction
    - if WR decide NO is wrong, they'll quite likely say nothing and quietly delete the video

    What a mess

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    I note NO and WB are taking the position that favours the other nation.
    I wonder if they are subconsciously trying not to seem biassed.
    Or am I overthinking this.

  8. #128

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    I note NO and WB are taking the position that favours the other nation.
    I wonder if they are subconsciously trying not to seem biassed.
    Or am I overthinking this.
    Yes.

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    I note NO and WB are taking the position that favours the other nation.
    I wonder if they are subconsciously trying not to seem biassed.
    Or am I overthinking this.
    WB doesn't quite address the specific Wales incident does he , but I thought WB video meant it was a KO (as uncontrolled all the way down )

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Doesn't this then turn on the definition of "possession"?

    According to the 2020 rule book:

    Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to
    bring it under control.


    So the player bobbling the ball can be tackled until they are no longer attempting to bring it under control.

    Similarly, it's the last bobble that counts towards KO because until that point they haven't lost possession? I suppose this is WB's basis.

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