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Thread: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    Do you not think it came off his hand? I saw hand behind the body trying to gather, forward off hand onto leg?
    His leg has nowt to do with it. It went forward off his hand and he didnít gather it.

    The only argument I can see for it not being a knock on is that he was in possession until it hit his calf. But I disagree with that. Never in possession for me.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    I mention his leg because it was in front of his hand, to hit his leg it had to go forward from his hand (some are debating it went forward), after that I agree with you, not gathered so knock on

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    I thought the two calls were shocking and 14 points that should not have been. That said was it last year or the year before welsh had to the ball first and official go for an England grounding. So, swings and roundabouts on one level but an interesting chat with the refs' head honcho for the To3.

    More worrying for England was their discipline. Possible YC for Itoje. And terrible game management from 24-24 until the end of the game.

    Felt that Farrell and Eddie Jones (together with AWJ and Pivac) handled the post match "interviews" well not geing goaded by the hack into speaking out of turn. Full marks to them.
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 27-02-21 at 20:02.

  4. #14
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    I thought the two calles were shocking and 14 points that should not have been. That said was it last year or the year before welsh had to the ball first and official go for an England grounding. So, swings and roundabouts on one level but an interesting chat with the refs' head honcho for the To3.

    More worrying for England was their discipline. Possible YC for Itoje. And terrible game management from 24-24 until the end of the game.

    Felt that Farrell and Eddie Jones (together with AWJ and Pivac) handled the post match "interviews" well not geing goaded by the hack into speaking out of turn. Full marks to them.
    Part of me (a small part!) is glad we lost by more than 14, so it mostly takes those two tries out of the equation, England lost that game on their own merit ultimately

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro View Post
    I donít think it ever went forward, I think it went backwards into his leg, and then back again off his leg into the England player.
    Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it


    1. The red player knocks the ball forward

    2. The red player never catches the ball

    3. The ball does go backwards off the Red player's leg, but then first touches the ground clearly in front of where the red player first knocked the ball with his hand.

    There is nothing in the law that states the ball going backwards off a player negates the fact that it was previously knocked forward.... "...a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm........ and the ball touches the ground"

    For mine, the key issue is, was the place it first touched the ground "forward" of the place where it was first knocked by his hand....


    It very clearly was, so IMO, this is a clear knock-on.

    As for the first try, I am 50/50 as to whether or not it should have been allowed.

    I guess its a lesson that professional rugby players need to have learned by this stage of their careers - the game is 80 minutes long, and you can't afford to snooze for any of it, not even a second.

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  6. #16
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    Part of me (a small part!) is glad we lost by more than 14, so it mostly takes those two tries out of the equation, England lost that game on their own merit ultimately
    The thing is with 20 to go it was 24 all, take those two tries away and it is 10-24. Totally diferent ball game. They were critical errors for me.

    But yes playing what was in front of them England's discipline in the last 20 was awful.
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 27-02-21 at 21:02.

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    Rugby Club Member Pedro's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Ian, I donít disagree with most of your assessment there. I watched the match live and saw the replays on tv- but havenít gone back to watch it since, so I may be wrong- but I thought that the ball went backwards from the hands, hit the leg and went backwards again into an England player where it then went forward.
    The ball Ďtouched the ground or another player...í behind where the ball was last handled by the Wales player and wasnít knocked forward.
    At least, thatís what the TMO implied.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    The logic that the ref has applied is that once Red 14 makes contact with the ball with his hand he doesn't then lose contact with the ball until after the ball hits his leg and goes backwards. He's effectively saying Red 14 caught the ball then drops it backwards.

    Probably not how I would have called it.

    Interestingly, it puts the ARs in potentially a tough spot when the ref asks "does anyone disagree?"
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    [LAWS]

    3. The ball does go backwards off the Red player's leg, but then first touches the ground clearly in front of where the red player first knocked the ball with his hand.

    There is nothing in the law that states the ball going backwards off a player negates the fact that it was previously knocked forward.... "...a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm........ and the ball touches the ground"

    For mine, the key issue is, was the place it first touched the ground "forward" of the place where it was first knocked by his hand....


    It very clearly was, so IMO, this is a clear knock-on.

    being pedantic, as you say above the ball going backwards off a player does not negate the first knock forward, so where the ball hits the ground doesnít dictate whether it was an infringement or not. It could have hit his heel and gone 30 metres back before touching the ground and itíd still have been a knock on.

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    1st try - technically nothing incorrect. I think from a management point of view it was simply a case of the referee being caught out by Biggars decision to kick diagonally rather than indicate and take a relatively easy shot at goal for three points. It’s not the first time, and won’t be the last, that a referee (and players?) is caught out by a player not doing what they expected them to do.

    2nd try - I don’t think there’s any argument that the ball was initially knocked forward and never brought under control (or was it?) before it went back; having been hit back by the other hand which was in front of the first one. It was an ‘attempt’ to get it under control. - Not quite the same scenario but what would you call if at a knock forward the player was able to dive forward and knock it back into the hands of a supporting player and then they went on to score? Whether or not it touched the floor first by the scoring player.
    Overall I don’t think there is a ‘correct’ answer but rather a matter of mindset and interpretation and on this occasion it went in favour of the team in red. The majority opinion would seem to be that the ‘knock-on’ would have been called and if this had happened then it would have been accepted at that moment.

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