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Thread: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

      
  1. #41
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    As always with this type of argument, its flawed. The game starts in a different place depending on whether the try is awarded or not, not to mention that the mindset of the players will be different, so the game will unfold differently.

    The only times this argument can be valid are

    1. A score right on half-time where no side is blown immediately after the score is completed

    2. Missed conversions.

    In both cases, the game restarts in the same place, in the same way regardless of the awarding or not of the try, or the success of the conversion kick...


    Which brings me to something interesting I saw on the sideline watching a pre-season club game yesterday for which I will make a new thread....

    ETA: https://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...863#post372863
    True we don't know what would have happened. However we do know that a side behind the game has a different mindset to one that is not. THe scores DID effect what followed. They were material to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Watching it live, my immediate reaction to the first try is that England were expecting a shot at goal, which was as large a contributory factor to the score as anything.

    The second one - if I were Eddie Jones, I would be annoyed. If I were Pivac I would be annoyed if it were disallowed.

    I thought he was refereeing to the assessment sheet. Technically accurate, but not great management. Certainly if I had been coaching a junior referee who had that kind of a game we would be chatting about cards and preventive measures. Itoje should have gone for his personal accumulation, and possibly a second English player for team accumulation. If we are to talk about the effect of taking one or more of the scores off, we have to ask how many points England could have shipped in 20 minutes playing with 14...

    A difference between law errors and the subjective call not to issue cards. Also, and we can only speculate on this, would England have felt the pressure that led to the penalities if they were not chasing the game?

    THe referee had a big material impact on the game that is the only this we know for sure.

    I for one am happy that Wales won the TC and are in the mix for a possible GS show down but we rode the luck of a poor display from the To3.

  2. #42

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Firstly, Wales deserved to win for me, England were too inconsistent and were caught napping too many times (Kieran Vardy's quick tap try when Elliot Daly is walking away not looking) however the thing that concerned me most about the 1st try was that after having his quiet chat with Biggar, the ref looks directly across at England and can therefore see they are mostly still in a huddle beneath the posts with only a couple of players moving out to the wing and clearly decides that it is appropriate for him the restart the clock (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/56226173 0:52s) . From a game management perspective how can that be sensible? At grass roots level I should imagine it would be possible to get away with it but at international level why would you even consider it? He stopped the clock then restarted it when he knew one side were not ready.....a deliberate decision that could easily have been avoided by waiting a few more seconds - after all we wait for both sides to be ready at the start of a match. And now instead of what could have been a great game, all it will be remembered for will be an avoidable controversial decision by the referee, surely something we all try to avoid.

    However, that did not lose the game for England but it must have had an effect on their play. Someone said earlier in this thread about how many points would England have shipped if down to 14 men....it would be wrong to assume that would be the case. On Friday evening, Exeter lost a prop to a red card at 27min and did not relinquish the close lead until the 69th minute and there are numerous other examples of teams down to 14 playing much better for that to be an ill-advised assumption.

  3. #43

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Not always Nigel’s greatest fan, but the KO definition (thank you Ian I was reading the law not definition) is clear; if a player loses control of the ball and it moves forward, regardless of whether it touches another player before hitting the ground it is a KO. The only question is was it going forward off Zammit as it hit this thigh. For me - that is a yes. We often see players dropping the ball at speed where the ball seemingly goes backwards pulled by for a KO, largely due to perceived trajectory and this feels reasonable.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Skids View Post
    Firstly, Wales deserved to win for me, England were too inconsistent and were caught napping too many times (Kieran Vardy's quick tap try when Elliot Daly is walking away not looking) however the thing that concerned me most about the 1st try was that after having his quiet chat with Biggar, the ref looks directly across at England and can therefore see they are mostly still in a huddle beneath the posts with only a couple of players moving out to the wing and clearly decides that it is appropriate for him the restart the clock (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/56226173 0:52s) . From a game management perspective how can that be sensible? At grass roots level I should imagine it would be possible to get away with it but at international level why would you even consider it? He stopped the clock then restarted it when he knew one side were not ready.....a deliberate decision that could easily have been avoided by waiting a few more seconds - after all we wait for both sides to be ready at the start of a match. And now instead of what could have been a great game, all it will be remembered for will be an avoidable controversial decision by the referee, surely something we all try to avoid.

    However, that did not lose the game for England but it must have had an effect on their play. Someone said earlier in this thread about how many points would England have shipped if down to 14 men....it would be wrong to assume that would be the case. On Friday evening, Exeter lost a prop to a red card at 27min and did not relinquish the close lead until the 69th minute and there are numerous other examples of teams down to 14 playing much better for that to be an ill-advised assumption.
    If he felt England were delaying he could have told the mto get a move on and eventually card Farrell. He just had a horrible brainfart that was ugly.

  5. #45

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    Knock on
    Play on

    But that’s not what happened, he just knocked it forward, half a juggle at best
    So we agree any amount of juggling is not the issue, but the final direction of the ball is the deciding factor.

    Then this decision is clear - last action from red's hand was backwards. Ergo no knock-on.

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    [QUOTE=irishref;372923.

    Then this decision is clear - last action from red's hand was backwards. Ergo no knock-on.[/QUOTE]

    Again not necessarily!

    If the last action of a players hand, after 'juggling', is to slap/bat the ball backwards then that is considered a knock on even though the ball didn't go forward and the last action of the players hand was backwards! !

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by irishref View Post
    So we agree any amount of juggling is not the issue, but the final direction of the ball is the deciding factor.

    Then this decision is clear - last action from red's hand was backwards. Ergo no knock-on.
    I disagree, it’s not the final direction that’s important but the initial knock forward. Any direction after that has no relevance.

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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Decorily View Post
    Again not necessarily!

    If the last action of a players hand, after 'juggling', is to slap/bat the ball backwards then that is considered a knock on even though the ball didn't go forward and the last action of the players hand was backwards! !
    Did you read the definition? To me it's clear that 2 things constitute the knock on:

    1a The player losing possession forward
    1b The ball going forward off hand/arm
    1c The ball hits hand/arm and goes forward

    AND

    2 Hits an opponent or the ground before the original player can regather

    Point 2 is missing after the only forward action from Red 14, thus no knock on.

    His next action is to knock the ball backwards, no knock on. Hits his leg then an English knee and red 15 finishes it off.
    Last edited by irishref; 28-02-21 at 14:02. Reason: Spelling

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    I disagree, it’s not the final direction that’s important but the initial knock forward. Any direction after that has no relevance.
    Agree, all else in between is irrelevant here, knocked forward, not caught.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

    Quote Originally Posted by irishref View Post
    Did you read the definition? To me it's clear that 2 things constitute the knock on:

    1a The player losing possession forward
    1b The ball going forward off hand/arm
    1c The ball hits hand/arm and goes forward

    AND

    2 Hits an opponent or the ground before the original player can regather

    Point 2 is missing after the only forward action from Red 14, thus no knock on.

    His next action is to knock the ball backwards, no knock on. Hits his leg then an English knee and red 15 finishes it off.
    Point 2, per the definition: Before the original player can catch it.

    Batting it backwards, flailing out a leg to kick it forwards following a fumble, etc... doesn't count.

    ISTR this discussion with a high-profile case with an Australian player batting it back following a fumble on a line break, a couple of years ago - can any Aussie refs help? In the opponents 22, towards the left-hand side of the pitch.

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