Clarification 1 "021

[Jz558]

Same reply as Crossref - I would allow the replacement in all 4 cases (as I would also for the YC scenarios).

[Phil E]

I seem to be going along with everyone else.

If it's your penalty and you don't take the quick tap then you can make substitutions, bring on YC cards, etc (subject to RFU regulations, only two subs at one time, can't take a kick at goal as first action, etc)...AND so can the other team. Your penalty, your decision to slow the game down or not.

If it's the offending team (not your penalty) then you can't do any of those things unless the other team decide to first. i.e. its their prerogative to go quickly and you can't do anything to try and slow that down.

[Rich_NL]

If it's your penalty, you can make the choice. If a YC is 9'50 in when the penalty is given, he can't come back on. If it's 10'10 he can, and play however he likes.

If you're bringing players on/off, no quick taps.

[crossref]

If it's your penalty, you can make the choice. If a YC is 9'50 in when the penalty is given, he can't come back on. If it's 10'10 he can.
.

that's an interesting one, though. If they think for 15s and then ask to make a substitution, you'll say yes and stop the clock at 10.05. And then they say - while we are doing the replacement, can the YC player also come on now? It's 10.05 ?


Although I think you are probably right to say no. It's clear and reasonable to take it from time of the PK

[Rich_NL]

Yep, that's the point the ball went "dead".

[crossref]

Yep, that's the point the ball went "dead".

well that's the nub of this isn't it -- when you blow whistle for PK ball is still alive (as they can quick tap). The ball only goes properly dead (for a replacement) when you say it's dead.

[didds]

and here's a thought...

a YC is for ten minutes. so notwithstanding waiting as per the above for 10 minutes to actually pass etc ... it equally seems inequitable for a YC player and team to be off/doqwn for eg 15 minutes just because the ball never is treated as "dead" between 10:01 and 15:00 just because of PKs, FKs, QTIs, quick throw ins to formed lineouts etc etc etc. There has to become a time where its only reasonable to permit the YC player to return. Otherwise as suggested before, it is only scrums and a 2nd half kick off whereby the ball is NOT zombie like and the game coud restart as soon as the team awarded <the next action> choose to do so ... which could optherwise preclude an oppo YC from returning

[crossref]

and here's a thought...

a YC is for ten minutes. so notwithstanding waiting as per the above for 10 minutes to actually pass etc ... it equally seems inequitable for a YC player and team to be off/doqwn for eg 15 minutes just because the ball never is treated as "dead" between 10:01 and 15:00 just because of PKs, FKs, QTIs, quick throw ins to formed lineouts etc etc etc. There has to become a time where its only reasonable to permit the YC player to return. Otherwise as suggested before, it is only scrums and a 2nd half kick off whereby the ball is NOT zombie like and the game coud restart as soon as the team awarded <the next action> choose to do so ... which could optherwise preclude an oppo YC from returning

i agree - I remember going to a talk with Wayne Barnes once - I think the quesiton was about bringing a player back on while the QTI was still a possibility - and he said something like: presumably the YC player is standing there on the touchline, bursting to go on? why no just just catch his eye and beckon him on?


in other words: frequently it's perfectly possible to bring back a YC player at a zombie ball moment if you want to. Might take literally 0.5s .

Of course you have to be consistent and fair to both teams, so that's the potential problem .

[Balones]

and here's a thought...

a YC is for ten minutes. so notwithstanding waiting as per the above for 10 minutes to actually pass etc ... it equally seems inequitable for a YC player and team to be off/doqwn for eg 15 minutes just because the ball never is treated as "dead" between 10:01 and 15:00 just because of PKs, FKs, QTIs, quick throw ins to formed lineouts etc etc etc. There has to become a time where its only reasonable to permit the YC player to return. Otherwise as suggested before, it is only scrums and a 2nd half kick off whereby the ball is NOT zombie like and the game coud restart as soon as the team awarded <the next action> choose to do so ... which could optherwise preclude an oppo YC from returning

You are right didds. I was going to tell the story about a YC four years ago which lasted 20 mins and 17 seconds. This arose because eleven minutes had gone but the referee refused to let the YC back on (non-offending) at a penalty and insisted waiting until the lineout. They missed touch and a combination of continuous play and other penalties led to the 20 mins+. He was only allowed back on when a scrum was opted for. Even then the opposition objected!

[thepercy]

Apart from perhaps one person from the southern hemisphere it looks as if we have a considerable amount of consensus and that referees would allow a YC to return at a penalty if the non-offending side want to make the return. I must admit I am slightly disappointed by the number of responses because it was a genuine question to try to gauge what degree of consistency we have.

Now can we look at a similar situation where we have the non-offending side wanting to make a replacement.
Team Red have been awarded a penalty and want to make a replacement. Assuming no quick penalty has been taken, team. They want to:-
A.) Take a kick for touch.
B.) Take a shot at goal. (Not by the replacement in RFU land because it is not allowed.)
C.) Opt for a scrum.
D.) Tap and run with the ball.

What would you do or expect the referee to do? Anything different to the YC return?

For me, if its REDs prerogative to play the ball, Red can request the sub, affectively asking for the referee to make the ball dead. Then the referee makes the ball dead, both sides can enjoy the privileges of the ball being dead, YCs return, subs can be made, water can come on.