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Thread: Clarification 1 "021

      
  1. #11
    Rugby Club Member Treadmore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Not sure why this is seen as unclear.

    Red blows whistle for penalty (8g) - this does not stop play

    Ref decides to stop play (8b) - blows whistle again

    Isn't that what the clarification means?

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Treadmore View Post
    Not sure why this is seen as unclear.

    Red blows whistle for penalty (8g) - this does not stop play

    Ref decides to stop play (8b) - blows whistle again

    Isn't that what the clarification means?
    No. That’s your interpretation of how you’d like things to happen. When the referee blows the whistle play stops and the ball becomes dead. This is usually for an offence. Law6.8b allows the referee to stop play for any reason outside of an offence and outside of those not mentioned in 6.8. For example an injury by the referee, a brawl/altercation, pitch invasion or even a dog on the pitch, etc.
    Last edited by Balones; 3 Weeks Ago at 21:03.

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    No. That’s your interpretation of how you’d like things to happen. When the referee blows the whistle play stops and the ball becomes dead. This is usually for an offence. Law6.8b allows the referee to stop play for any reason outside of an offence and outside of those not mentioned in 6.8. For example an injury by the referee, a brawl/altercation, pitch invasion or even a dog on the pitch, etc.
    It doesn't always become dead. When a PK is awarded (or a 22 ) for example , one team is free to play the ball immediately

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Treadmore View Post
    Not sure why this is seen as unclear.

    Red blows whistle for penalty (8g) - this does not stop play

    Ref decides to stop play (8b) - blows whistle again

    Isn't that what the clarification means?
    Agree with this
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  5. #15

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Agree with this
    It would have helped if the clarification stated clearly what the sequence of events should be to allow a replacement, returning player or substitution should/must be including how many times to blow the whistle. If the whistle is to be blown twice then simply say so.

    However, and it is here that I feel the basis for dissension with the clarification lies, it simply says when the referee gives permission. That in itself is vague and gives no guidance to referees and will lead to inconsistency and confusion. Some referees will allow replacements at penalties, some won’t until the ball has been kicked for touch, some won’t allow until there has been a kick at goal etc, etc. When a YC has done their time can they return at the next blow of the whistle? Assuming there is no quickly taken penalty. If you wait for a kick at goal and they miss and play continues for another five minutes is that fair?
    Over the years I have observed referees making all sorts of random decisions in relation to replacements, subs and YC’s and it leads to annoyance. We should have had much clearer guidance and clarification on such matters to, in particular, help the grassroots officials. At my level and above we have fouth officials and direct communication with the referee. How does the lone ref manage such situations? Leaving such decisions up to the referee and the vagaries of how he feels about things does not help the new referee doing his second game with Old Dogs 4ths. Again WR has not thought about the game as a whole. Under what were the existing conditions I have given my referees a very clear procedure to follow which allows for consistency but I don’t know if other coaches adopt the same procedure or if the next Society does.The whole situation about replacements,subs and YC returners is a mess and needs ‘clarification’ for everyone across the world of rugby.

  6. #16

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Balones, I take a slightly different view.

    I don't want WR (or anyone else) dictating how I manage the game through excessive prescription.

    I'm comfortable managing the game (whether it be talking to the captain, talking to the coach, marching a team 10 metres, defusing heated situations, bringing subs on, etc) within loosely defined boundaries.

    In the OP, it's straightforward. "Kicker, what are you going to do?" "Kick for touch, sir" "Touchie, make subs at the lineout please"
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    .

    In the OP, it's straightforward. "Kicker, what are you going to do?" "Kick for touch, sir" "Touchie, make subs at the lineout please"
    But how much inconsistency can we put up with ?
    For instance i never ask the team what they are going to do, is that wrong, does that matter?.



    Some scenarios. PK awarded to Red
    - Red would like to bring YC player back on before taking the PK
    - red would like bring YC 10 back on to take the kick
    - red would like to make a substitution before taking the kick
    - a player is injured, given clock is stopped , red would like to make a substitution before taking the kick
    - if you allow a YC red player back, can blue make a substitution

    Red opt to kick for posts (and do not want any subs etc) Now
    - can blue bring a YC player back before kick is taken
    - can blue make a substitution before kick is taken ?


    For me it's yes to all those by law am I right/wrong or not clear ?
    Does it matter if different refs take different views ?

    Has the clarification helped us deal consistently with those scenarios
    Last edited by crossref; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:04.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Balones, I take a slightly different view.

    I don't want WR (or anyone else) dictating how I manage the game through excessive prescription.

    I'm comfortable managing the game (whether it be talking to the captain, talking to the coach, marching a team 10 metres, defusing heated situations, bringing subs on, etc) within loosely defined boundaries.

    In the OP, it's straightforward. "Kicker, what are you going to do?" "Kick for touch, sir" "Touchie, make subs at the lineout please"
    What you are suggesting in your example is eminently sensible and I could support it but what I have experience of is a very wide variation of interpretation of the law and situations from week to week. The list of questions that CR outlines is only the tip of the iceberg and I could fill a page on this forum with inconsistencies. The examples outlined so far have tended to revolve around PKs and FKs but what about at scrums? Here I see referees not allowing replacements/returns at scrum options at penalties etc. From one week to the next I see some referees allowing a YC back at a penalty to kick for touch or take a shot at goal but then refusing the same incident for the YC opposition being refused! Other refs refuse until there is a lineout or scrum. We have to be fair to both sides clearly but I don’t always see it.
    Part of the inconsistency over the years has been based around Clarification 2-2007 which some officials were aware of and others not. In your example as a coach I would be really annoyed if you had refused my best line kicker entry to the pitch since 2-2007 clearly said you(I) can bring him on. How would you explain your decision to the coach in such circumstances? The coach can point it out in writing.
    Producing a procedure document on how to consistently and fairly manage replacements/subs/returners is not difficult and should be published for the benefit of all, including refs, players and spectators.
    Last edited by Balones; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:04.

  9. #19

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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    In the OP, it's straightforward. "Kicker, what are you going to do?" "Kick for touch, sir" "Touchie, make subs at the lineout please"
    I was almost on your side until you said "touchie"

    You can get put on a register for that here

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  10. #20
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    Default Re: Clarification 1 "021

    Looks pretty clear to me.

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