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Thread: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

      
  1. #61

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    I thought the ref had a good game overall. But this To4 interaction was bloody woeful. Well... To3 ... I'd accept one AR was at least 60m away so probably didnt have any input that was really valid.
    ...and was probably thinking, i'm not getting involved in this, "sorry too far away, never saw a thing".

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  2. #62

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Throughout both six nations tournaments I have got the feeling that (some?) referees are not looking hard enough at keeping players on the pitch but looking for every opportunity to get them off. Not so much in the women’s 6 Nations but certainly in the men’s, refereeing decisions have probably had the biggest impact on the final outcome of the tournament.

    As well as having ‘reckless’ and ‘careless’ we need an ‘unlucky’ category?

  3. #63

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Throughout both six nations tournaments I have got the feeling that (some?) referees are not looking hard enough at keeping players on the pitch but looking for every opportunity to get them off. Not so much in the women’s 6 Nations but certainly in the men’s, refereeing decisions have probably had the biggest impact on the final outcome of the tournament.

    As well as having ‘reckless’ and ‘careless’ we need an ‘unlucky’ category?
    I surmise we are headed toward the 20-minute replacement rule for RC. That way WR can continue to crack down very hard on what they see as dangerous play, so high frequency of RCs - but without 'spoiling the spectacle'. .

    (not necessarily a bad solution, in fact I tend to think quite a good one)

  4. #64

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Still very much up to the ref at the community game and here it may well be down to gut feeling about situations.

  5. #65

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Still very much up to the ref at the community game and here it may well be down to gut feeling about situations.
    Agreed. The subtle head clashes are very difficult to see at full speed, with one change of seeing it.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    Agreed. The subtle head clashes are very difficult to see at full speed, with one change of seeing it.
    I don’t think I’ve ever seen one - which is probably the point, I’m sure they’ve happened. High tackles of course, and a few forearms to the head, that at least has weight in sanctioning now

  7. #67

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    At this stage I'm no clearer on what the outcome should be when I see a similar incident during one of my games. To be clear, prior to the incident and discussion, I would have applied the 'tackler beware' approach, penalised the defender and decided on the level of card required depending on the mitigating factors (essentially in line with what I saw happening during the six nations). I am still inclined to do that but that is not what the published guidelines seem to say.

    In this case I have sympathy with the Ref and TMO, who it seems to me, have followed the guidelines, ie they saw no foul play and therefore played on but, as has been pointed out, the citing officer saw it as a red card and so clearly believes there was foul play. It has been well argued that the tackle was reckless but surely that only works if you would also have penalised the tackler if no clash of heads occurred (the action is always reckless and not dependent on outcome). In the specific incident in the OP I would have penalised it as a high tackle, but if no high tackle occurred (as in the Wasps v Gloucester example) and you don’t believe this stand-up tackle was any more reckless than the ten others that took place during the game with no clash of heads, your only option is play on, which is what the guidelines say but not the principle that I thought we were supposed to apply.

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Sometimes, I think, you can only judge that something is reckless by outcome, like it or not. It is perfectly possible to perform a stand up, chest to chest / choke tackle without incident, without anyone raising an eyelid, and in fact if it becomes a turnover maul the player praised and rewarded for it. But one or two dynamic changes - possibly outside the tacklers control - suddenly that well rewarded and praised action becomes a red card. What's the difference?

    Are they both 'reckless'? Arguably in the big picture, maybe reckless is the wrong word, there is certainly risk (to you and oppo) in an upright tackle, and also reward. I think the important bit to consider is that the player has chosen to make that type of tackle, if he / she had chosen to bend at the waist and tackle that way then the risks are different, and that's the end result the game wants, different choices.

  9. #69

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Good advice here. After the initial presentation he talks about how to handle this in the community game with just one look at the incident.

    https://jwp.io/s/LMstgeFX

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    Default Re: Head clash, with force, "accidental" = no card? women's 6N

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Good advice here. After the initial presentation he talks about how to handle this in the community game with just one look at the incident.

    https://jwp.io/s/LMstgeFX
    That’s why I said my previous post.

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