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Thread: England v France - 24/4/2921

      
  1. #21
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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    In my 2014 law book 21.3
    a Anu player may take a penalty or free kick with any type of kick ...
    b bouncing the ball off the knee is not taking a kick
    Sanction Any infringement by the kickers team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team to throw in.
    c: The kicker must use the ball in play, unless the referee declares it defective
    Sanction Any infringement by the kickers team results in a scrum at the mark.

    21.2 is about where the kick is taken. a: covers normal penalties, b is in goal. There is a sanction of a scrum, but due to the way it is worded, it appears the scrum is always 5m from the goal line in line with the mark. c permits for a quickly taken kick from the wrong place to be brought back and taken again - that is marked in green as being a change.

    So I do not believe the sanction was added in 2021, it was incorrectly removed in 2020 (or perhaps earlier)20210506_095953.jpg

  2. #22

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    Interestingly Crossref recorded the change in his spreadsheet of the differences between the laws pre/post 2017 rewrite.

    thumbnail.jpg

  3. #23

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    In the old days they always highlighted the changes from year to year. Wish they would do that now.

    I don't think the scrum sanction was removed accidentally in 2017, as it was removed so thoroughly and carefully - - it doesn't appear in 19.1 in the list of scrum scenarios. it was deliberate.

    Next I think the scrum sanction was added back in 2021 by someone who hadn't thought about what they were doing, because they forgot to add it to the table in 19.1 .
    I imagine it was added back by someone who thought he was correcting an error.

    Also the sanction looks like it applies to all of 20.5 to 20.11 - which cannot really be the case.


    So I would surmise it was a careful disambiguation in 2017 (to clear up the situation where some refs did a scrum and some take it again), carelessly changed in 2021.

    sigh.. but from now on, scrum it is

    (for those refs who have managed to spot the unannounced change... otherwise take it again. We are right back to 2016 !)
    Last edited by crossref; 06-05-21 at 10:05.

  4. #24

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    The danger here is that by sneaking changes back in that may or may not have been intentional in 2017 we risk a scenario where you look a proper Charlie having made a decision during a game, confident that it is in line with the law book, only to be confronted by an angry coach afterwards, showing you the law book with wording you've never seen before.

  5. #25

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    it's been a pattern ever since 2017 - each year since 2018 (and sometimes mid year) changes to the text have been smuggled in, unannounced.

    EVERY change should be highlighted regardless of whether it was thought to be an error correction, or a new thing.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    It is high time that WR admits the massive cock up the simplification of 2018 was. They need to go back to the 2017 book and compare it to the current book and come up with a definitive version.

  7. #27

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    It is high time that WR admits the massive cock up the simplification of 2018 was. They need to go back to the 2017 book and compare it to the current book and come up with a definitive version.
    I could help with that - I constructed a useful table that does exactly that comparison, highlighting the differences

    and - gosh - what hostility and abuse that I endured for constructing that table!

    This messenger was well and truly hanged drawn and quartered ... before being shot...

    However : it was only a cock up if changes were unintentional. Some changes did indeed seem to be so, but others I am certain were deliberate. And of course every ambiguity cleaned up represented a change for some, but not so for others.
    Last edited by crossref; 06-05-21 at 12:05.

  8. #28

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    Tap taken without ball being released from hands. Peep. "You took the PK in the wrong spot. Also make sure to take the kick correctly, or else I'll have to call for a scrum." Wink.

  9. #29

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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    Tap taken without ball being released from hands. Peep. "You took the PK in the wrong spot. Also make sure to take the kick correctly, or else I'll have to call for a scrum." Wink.
    I think that's exactly why they changed the Law to be take it again
    Shame it's gone back to being a scrum again

  10. #30
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    Default Re: England v France - 24/4/2921

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I could help with that - I constructed a useful table that does exactly that comparison, highlighting the differences

    and - gosh - what hostility and abuse that I endured for constructing that table!

    This messenger was well and truly hanged drawn and quartered ... before being shot...

    However : it was only a cock up if changes were unintentional. Some changes did indeed seem to be so, but others I am certain were deliberate. And of course every ambiguity cleaned up represented a change for some, but not so for others.
    You were not hung drawn and quartered for that. The point was, and still is, that WR said there were no changes just clarifications. Now you may say they lied. That is your perogtive. But no one critisized you showing the mess. We disagreed on how to deal with the mess.

    The laws need a proper tidy up because they are too ambiguous and too open to individual interpretation. That tidy up needs to start at redifining what the laws actully are meant to mean. We then need to APPLY the laws as intended for a few seasons to actually find out IF they work. Only then should we be making changes.

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