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Thread: Penalty Try

      
  1. #61
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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    to be fair, the OP saw a (potentially) safety-related oddity on a televised game and wondered if there was a better way - especially since no conversion now required. We should always be open to new ideas.
    But there was no need for his to repeatedly claim that the law demanded something that it does not. Yes be open t oa new way of signalling a PT. However, Crossref did not need to use falsehoods to do so.

  2. #62

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    gosh Marc you do manage to work yourself up into quite a state!

  3. #63

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    gosh Marc you do manage to work yourself up into quite a state!
    Well done for addressing the point made to you.

    Oh. Wait. You didn't.

    Yet again.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    gosh Marc you do manage to work yourself up into quite a state!
    Why don't you :

    1: answer the question?

    2: tell the truth?

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Well done for addressing the point made to you.

    Oh. Wait. You didn't.

    Yet again.
    Spot on!

  6. #66

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    sigh - really not sure why this is so controversial for you, it was just an idea, a suggstion.


    I'll have a go at explaining again!

    The context is that a team have just been denied a try scoring opportunity by an act of foul play - so it's quite often a potential flashpoint that we have to deal with.

    I think we all agree so far, right?

    The Law as it stands creates some tensions for the ref
    1- on the one hand we need to dissolve the flashpoint, which is best done staying close to the players

    2 - on the other hand we want to quickly make it clear to the teams, the coaches and spectators that we are awarding a PT, which might require being 30m away.

    3 and ideally we want to do these things at the same time, because making it clear that the PT is being awarded is a big part of dissolving the tension. the non-offending team will calm down when they know the foul play is going to be dealt with by a YC and seven points

    Of course the way have to manage this is as Phil said "the ref can separate the teams, deal with the incident, issue any cards and signal the try as the final act once everything else is dealt with", but this is not ideal, it solves for #1 but tensions #2 and #3 remain

    It also brings in another factor

    4 - while you are calming the flash point, the non-offending team and coaches are probably appealing for a PT.
    Being asked several times for a PT and then 20 seconds later awarding one isn't a great look, it can give the impression you are responding to the appeals, rather than driving the situation

    obviously you mitigate that AS WELL by quickly telling the captain its PT -- but the coaches, the players further away, the spectators can't hear that.

    So it's not ideal.

    Yes we manage around it as we are experienced refs, but it's not ideal .

    But is there any way these tensions could be removed ?


    Hey, here's an idea ! Why don't we change the Law so that a referee can signal a PT right where he is standing .

    Now that's a good idea, right ?

    Now we can stay in one place, manage the flashpoint and award the PT all at the same time, which helps with the flashpoint ..


    What a good idea crossref, that is interesting - -indeed it's hard to see any downside with that....


    Now, you may legitimately say 'it's a not really a very big tensin, it's not often a big problem.
    And I would say : yes, but I am not proposing a big change. All I am proposing is a different signal for a PT.. It's not that radical!
    Last edited by crossref; 22-05-21 at 11:05.

  7. #67

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    If foul play occurs and starts a fight, the referee's first action is to blow loudly to try and get their attention while trying to defuse the situation and trying to remember who did what to whom. He will not stop to give the relevant foul play signal first.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  8. #68

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    If foul play occurs and starts a fight, the referee's first action is to blow loudly to try and get their attention while trying to defuse the situation and trying to remember who did what to whom. He will not stop to give the relevant foul play signal first.
    Correct but by blowing his whistle (with a PK blast) he has successfully and clearly communicated that he is giving a PK.

    So the decision is clearly communicated

    (which is why whistle tone is important)

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    sigh - really not sure why this is so controversial for you, it was just an idea, a suggstion.


    I'll have a go at explaining again!

    The context is that a team have just been denied a try scoring opportunity by an act of foul play - so it's quite often a potential flashpoint that we have to deal with.

    I think we all agree so far, right?

    The Law as it stands creates some tensions for the ref
    1- on the one hand we need to dissolve the flashpoint, which is best done staying close to the players

    2 - on the other hand we want to quickly make it clear to the teams, the coaches and spectators that we are awarding a PT, which might require being 30m away.

    3 and ideally we want to do these things at the same time, because making it clear that the PT is being awarded is a big part of dissolving the tension. the non-offending team will calm down when they know the foul play is going to be dealt with by a YC and seven points

    Of course the way have to manage this is as Phil said "the ref can separate the teams, deal with the incident, issue any cards and signal the try as the final act once everything else is dealt with", but this is not ideal, it solves for #1 but tensions #2 and #3 remain

    It also brings in another factor

    4 - while you are calming the flash point, the non-offending team and coaches are probably appealing for a PT.
    Being asked several times for a PT and then 20 seconds later awarding one isn't a great look, it can give the impression you are responding to the appeals, rather than driving the situation

    obviously you mitigate that AS WELL by quickly telling the captain its PT -- but the coaches, the players further away, the spectators can't hear that.

    So it's not ideal.

    Yes we manage around it as we are experienced refs, but it's not ideal .

    But is there any way these tensions could be removed ?


    Hey, here's an idea ! Why don't we change the Law so that a referee can signal a PT right where he is standing .

    Now that's a good idea, right ?

    Now we can stay in one place, manage the flashpoint and award the PT all at the same time, which helps with the flashpoint ..


    What a good idea crossref, that is interesting - -indeed it's hard to see any downside with that....


    Now, you may legitimately say 'it's a not really a very big tensin, it's not often a big problem.
    And I would say
    : yes, but I am not proposing a big change. All I am proposing is a different signal for a PT.. It's not that radical!
    Still unwilling to explain why you lied by claiming the laws demand the referee runs away (from the potential flashpoint) to award the PT.

    You either lied about the law OR you don't know the law. Either apologise for telling lies OR admit you got the law wrong!

  10. #70

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    i don't understand your confusion: the law requires the ref to go under the posts to award a PT.
    That's exactly what we are discussing.

    Now the Law doesn't require him to run - is that what you are banging on about ? But in (2) and (3) above, I explain why a good referee will want to quickly make everyone aware that he is awarding a PT. (although it hardly needs explaining)
    Which is is why we normally see refs move quickly.

    So , as clear as possible...
    - the ref will want to make the award as swiftly as possible to defuse tension and for clarity
    - but the law requires the ref to be under the posts
    - so the ref will often run

    really this is the whole point of the discussion.

    What I am not clear about is why you don't think allowing him to award the PT where he is, is a good suggestion....
    Last edited by crossref; 22-05-21 at 17:05.

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