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Thread: Penalty Try

      
  1. #71
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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    i don't understand your confusion: the law requires the ref to go under the posts to award a PT.
    That's exactly what we are discussing.

    Now the Law doesn't require him to run - is that what you are banging on about ? But in (2) and (3) above, I explain why a good referee will want to quickly make everyone aware that he is awarding a PT. (although it hardly needs explaining)
    Which is is why we normally see refs move quickly.

    So , as clear as possible...
    - the ref will want to make the award as swiftly as possible to defuse tension and for clarity
    - but the law requires the ref to be under the posts
    - so the ref will often run

    really this is the whole point of the discussion.

    What I am not clear about is why you don't think allowing him to award the PT where he is, is a good suggestion....
    At last!

    You finally admit the referee is not required by the laws of the game to run away from a flash point.

    Only took you 7 pages to tell the truth. Thank you and good night!

  2. #72

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    I think my idea, and the reasons for it has been pretty clear all along !
    What do you think of it ?

  3. #73

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I think my idea, and the reasons for it has been pretty clear all along !
    What do you think of it ?
    I think it is unnecessary. I do not see a significant problem with the current arrangements.

    The referee's primary responsibility is to run the game safely.

    Signals are mainly for non-participants and are secondary (or even tertiary) There is no significant downside to delaying the current signal in order to stop a fight.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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  4. #74

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    The issue we have is an incorrect statement of starting principles, which means the rest of the argument is fundamentally flawed.

    You boldly assert that a referee is trying to do all these things at once, when nowhere in regular practice, nor in law, is that the case.

    Take that limb from your argument and the rest tumbles.
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    The issue we have is an incorrect statement of starting principles, which means the rest of the argument is fundamentally flawed.

    You boldly assert that a referee is trying to do all these things at once, when nowhere in regular practice, nor in law, is that the case.

    Take that limb from your argument and the rest tumbles.
    100%! Start with a lie ( "missinterpretation") and the argument is always dead in the water.

  6. #76

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    The issue we have is an incorrect statement of starting principles, which means the rest of the argument is fundamentally flawed.

    You boldly assert that a referee is trying to do all these things at once, when nowhere in regular practice, nor in law, is that the case.

    Take that limb from your argument and the rest tumbles.
    i think you understood perfectly well what I meant ...

    but any in case if my proposal wasn't made perfectly clearly, I wrote it out carefully in post #66

  7. #77

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

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  8. #78

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Lifeson-Peart View Post
    What do we think about wearing leggings?
    Definately (sic) a PT.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

  9. #79

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Still unwilling to explain why you lied by claiming the laws demand the referee runs away (from the potential flashpoint) to award the PT.

    You either lied about the law OR you don't know the law. Either apologise for telling lies OR admit you got the law wrong!
    I think the "you're a liar" diatribe has run its course. Please bring it to an end. Thanks.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  10. #80

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    Default Re: Penalty Try

    To be clear then, as you referred me back to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    ...
    The context is that a team have just been denied a try scoring opportunity by an act of foul play - so it's quite often a potential flashpoint that we have to deal with.

    I think we all agree so far, right?

    The Law as it stands creates some tensions for the ref
    The only person who sees tension here is you. Most of the rest of us have laid out what seems to be fairly standard management practice
    1- on the one hand we need to dissolve the flashpoint, which is best done staying close to the players
    Yes

    2 - on the other hand we want to quickly make it clear to the teams, the coaches and spectators that we are awarding a PT, which might require being 30m away.
    I'm not sure I agree on the need for speed

    3 and ideally we want to do these things at the same time, because making it clear that the PT is being awarded is a big part of dissolving the tension. the non-offending team will calm down when they know the foul play is going to be dealt with by a YC and seven points
    (My bold)
    And this is where we part ways and my previous point about starting principles comes to the fore. Nowhere, except here in your assertion, does the law or anyone I know, advocate for the simultaneity of these things
    As a result, most of the rest of your post below dies on the vine.

    Of course the way have to manage this is as Phil said "the ref can separate the teams, deal with the incident, issue any cards and signal the try as the final act once everything else is dealt with", but this is not ideal, it solves for #1 but tensions #2 and #3 remain

    It also brings in another factor

    4 - while you are calming the flash point, the non-offending team and coaches are probably appealing for a PT.
    Being asked several times for a PT and then 20 seconds later awarding one isn't a great look, it can give the impression you are responding to the appeals, rather than driving the situation

    obviously you mitigate that AS WELL by quickly telling the captain its PT -- but the coaches, the players further away, the spectators can't hear that.

    So it's not ideal.

    Yes we manage around it as we are experienced refs, but it's not ideal .

    But is there any way these tensions could be removed ?
    As others have said, a solution in search of a problem
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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