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Thread: Asking for Numbers

      
  1. #41
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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    You're right that they are not obliged to say how many. But on what grounds do you take that as allowing the other side to not match numbers? You can't make up laws to suit yourself. As long and the non throwing-in side has time to reduce numbers you should manage things. Which may mean a warning of ping first time but you can't assume it's full.

    If they don't communicate to me, then I'm sole judge of fact. The fact is they might've made an error in their counting. They may have miscommunicated the numbers to their team mates and they might want a full LO but 2 of the forwards haven't heard. So I tell them at the start, if you don't tell me your LO numbers I'll assume it's a full LO. There's nothing in the Laws that prevents my standpoint. If they tell me then yes, I'll ping the non-throwing team if they've had plenty of time to drop numbers. Although, I'm there to facilitate a game of Rugby, not ping every minute offence and turn it into a game of kicking penalties/free kicks for gains in ground etc. So if the throwing team don't tell me, how an I meant to know their intensions. If you establish the ground rules at the start of the game, it's easier to manage and let the game flow.

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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    If they don't communicate to me, then I'm sole judge of fact. The fact is they might've made an error in their counting. They may have miscommunicated the numbers to their team mates and they might want a full LO but 2 of the forwards haven't heard. So I tell them at the start, if you don't tell me your LO numbers I'll assume it's a full LO. There's nothing in the Laws that prevents my standpoint. If they tell me then yes, I'll ping the non-throwing team if they've had plenty of time to drop numbers. Although, I'm there to facilitate a game of Rugby, not ping every minute offence and turn it into a game of kicking penalties/free kicks for gains in ground etc. So if the throwing team don't tell me, how an I meant to know their intensions. If you establish the ground rules at the start of the game, it's easier to manage and let the game flow.

    So, if you decide that a punch is only a free kick you are correct? I'll let your assessor comment on that one!

    Sole judge of fact does not mean you can make up the laws. Their intentions are irrelevant. Thowing side puts 4 in that is a fact that you can't change. The non throwing side can only be pingged IF they have time to react. That is their job. Your judgement is "did they have time?" . The Laws of the game prevent you making things up you are bound by the laws just as much as the players.
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 09-09-21 at 11:09.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    So, if you decide that a punch is only a free kick you are correct? I'll let your assessor comment on that one!

    Sole judge of fact does not mean you can make up the laws. Their intentions are irrelevant. Thowing side puts 4 in that is a fact that you can't change. The non throwing side can only be pingged IF they have time to react. That is their job. Your judgement is "did they have time?" . The Laws of the game prevent you making things up you are bound by the laws just as much as the players.

    What Laws am I making up. Am I meant to guess how many they are supposed to have in the LO, or do I go with what IS in the Laws and with the max numbers?

  4. #44

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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    What Laws am I making up. Am I meant to guess how many they are supposed to have in the LO, or do I go with what IS in the Laws and with the max numbers?
    How would you square a 4-man line-out with "if you don't tell me your LO numbers I'll assume it's a full LO"? You would be the only person on the pitch in step.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    If you clained a 4 mand was actually 7 you'd lose all credibility You've also told both sides that yoy are going to treat all line outs as full unless they do your job for you. You've just lost repect from both sides and their coaching staff.

    YOu are not meant to guess youare are meant to count numbers. It is part of your job.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    The closest I've come to this is when a team has told me "We always go 5 sir" in which case I'll announce "Assuming 5 unless you tell me otherwise" In earshot of all that need to do, then at least we have an agreed default - if they change then on them to tell me in good time and I'll give oppos time to match.

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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    The closest I've come to this is when a team has told me "We always go 5 sir" in which case I'll announce "Assuming 5 unless you tell me otherwise" In earshot of all that need to do, then at least we have an agreed default - if they change then on them to tell me in good time and I'll give oppos time to match.
    Ah, but now we're making Laws up.

    Marc, I'll have told them unless they tell me otherwise, I'll assume a full line. That's the chance to say - like Flish has said - we always do 5 man.... That's them told me, no need to do anything else part from making sure we have both teams with the correct numbers in the line. That's now my job, I know unless they call otherwise, I'm matching 5 players. Also again how am I meant to know it's meant to be a 4 man. What if they've called 5 man in their huddle and 4 step into the LO. Same maybe there's crossed wires, someone in he huddle says - "we'll have a 4 ball," Missheard to 4 man but it's meant to be full. There's no need for teams to keep it secret, just walk over and say "ref, we're having a 5 man LO." That way everyone knows. Throwing team know, I know, non-throwing team know.... everyone knows.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    Ah, but now we're making Laws up.

    Marc, I'll have told them unless they tell me otherwise, I'll assume a full line. That's the chance to say - like Flish has said - we always do 5 man.... That's them told me, no need to do anything else part from making sure we have both teams with the correct numbers in the line. That's now my job, I know unless they call otherwise, I'm matching 5 players. Also again how am I meant to know it's meant to be a 4 man. What if they've called 5 man in their huddle and 4 step into the LO. Same maybe there's crossed wires, someone in he huddle says - "we'll have a 4 ball," Missheard to 4 man but it's meant to be full. There's no need for teams to keep it secret, just walk over and say "ref, we're having a 5 man LO." That way everyone knows. Throwing team know, I know, non-throwing team know.... everyone knows.
    You are required to call numbers (or manage as per the law) That means you have to count. Not assume anything. If you assume you are making it up.

    Assessor Question: "Red put 2 men in the line out just on Half time Blue Put 8. Blue won the ball and scored a try Why didn't you FK it?"

    You: Red didn't tell me so it was full as far as I'm concerned."

    Assessor: "WTF"

  9. #49
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    Ah, but now we're making Laws up.
    ??? No, I'm just removing unnecessary management in the process, I'm not penalising anyone, there's no gotchas here, I'm just confirming what they've told me, and letting the other team know we don't need to keep asking for numbers as we already know - unless they chose to go different.

    If they do and don't tell me then on them. I'll just slow it down and give both teams a chance at a fair contest.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Asking for Numbers

    I agree, but one of the other commenters said that doing that is making up Laws. So I was just playing devils advocate. I don't think you are making up any Laws and there's any Gotcha reffing. It seems to be good management to me.

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