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Thread: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

      
  1. #51

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    With the advent of camera angles to show what the ref could not see, of course this concept is dead. The whole point of cameras / tmos it to gt the call right (that is to pick up what the reff NATURALLY misses. If the referee does not see something material "you know it's a red straight away" is clearly no longer valid.

    Also comething that is clear and obviose from the referees angle is anything but from the other side of the pitch and "Vicky Veruca".
    the concept of C & O is not restricted to the one referee/one view scenario. It applies equally to multiple camera angles - possibly even more so. If, after looking at all angles in super-slomo, you can't see a C & O red card, then it isn't
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  2. #52

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    With the advent of camera angles to show what the ref could not see, of course this concept is dead. The whole point of cameras / tmos it to gt the call right (that is to pick up what the reff NATURALLY misses. If the referee does not see something material "you know it's a red straight away" is clearly no longer valid.

    Also comething that is clear and obviose from the referees angle is anything but from the other side of the pitch and "Vicky Veruca".
    The problem here is that it wasn't "clear and obvious" even with several camera angles and frame by frame replays. The only head contact I saw was Blue 8's head rotating forwards towards Gold 11's shoulder This was as a result of the the shoulder-to-shoulder contact (like whiplash). This is not what the protocol means when it says "direct contact to the head". This should have been "play on".

    What I DID see is Blue 8 going down like he'd been shot, and clutching his face. That sort of "Oscar Nomination" behaviour has absolutely NO place whatsoever in our game. WR need to crack down on this with severe penalties; it needs to be a potential red card offence so that players who do this can be cited and face a judicial hearing.
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Yes Ian: but the point I raised is C&O as applied lower down the food chain no longer applies when incidents are subject to forensic analysis. When that happens we expect the correct answer with no regard to C&O we expect CORRECT.

    When the TMO system fails to provide the correct answer. Which is what those who watched this one seem to be saying it begs the question of the TMO system.

  4. #54

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    TMO isnt about C&O (when it is
    C&O you don't need aTMO )

    TMO is like hawk eye, it's endeavouring to be precisely correct . Toenail in touch is touch, a tiny bit offside is offside

  5. #55

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    I'm not really fussed about a forensic analysis of the definition of C&O except to say this:

    the opposite of C&O is a supposition of an outcome based on circumstantial evidence. For example: not sure player landed on back or neck but he is holding his neck so I'll go with that. Or, not sure if player knocked on but he's looking guilty and all the other players have stopped so I'll blow.

    So just because an event is not C&O to the referee in real time, it may very well be C&O to the TMO who has the benefit of camera angles and slo-mo.

    If an event is neither C&O to the referee nor C&O to the TMO (as per the Koroibete incident), it is likely that it never occurred.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  6. #56

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    I'm not really fussed about a forensic analysis of the definition of C&O except to say this:

    the opposite of C&O is a supposition of an outcome based on circumstantial evidence. For example: not sure player landed on back or neck but he is holding his neck so I'll go with that. Or, not sure if player knocked on but he's looking guilty and all the other players have stopped so I'll blow.

    So just because an event is not C&O to the referee in real time, it may very well be C&O to the TMO who has the benefit of camera angles and slo-mo.

    If an event is neither C&O to the referee nor C&O to the TMO (as per the Koroibete incident), it is likely that it never occurred.
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  7. #57

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    [...]

    If an event is neither C&O to the referee nor C&O to the TMO (as per the Koroibete incident), it is likely that it never occurred.
    Or just that there is no suitable camera angle available?
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  8. #58

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Yes Ian: but the point I raised is C&O as applied lower down the food chain no longer applies when incidents are subject to forensic analysis. When that happens we expect the correct answer with no regard to C&O we expect CORRECT.

    When the TMO system fails to provide the correct answer. Which is what those who watched this one seem to be saying it begs the question of the TMO system.
    If you could see clear and obvious direct head contact at full-speed at the first and only time of looking, you should be getting changed in a phone booth.
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  9. #59

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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    Or just that there is no suitable camera angle available?
    venturing into the "if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it, did it make a noise?" territory here however if the plethora of camera angles doesn't see an incident it is certainly not C&O
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  10. #60
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    Default Re: That's done it for me. Goodbye rugby I'm out

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    If you could see clear and obvious direct head contact at full-speed at the first and only time of looking, you should be getting changed in a phone booth.

    Delightfully choosing to miss the point.

    Wit hout a TMO we only get one look which is why we use C&O and we miss / "ignore" some things. Having a TMO means the chance NOT to be subject to a single look.

    But you knew that really, I'm sure.

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