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Thread: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

      
  1. #101

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    Revised 9.11
    Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others, unless they have jumped poorly and are off balance, and their shirt color is mostly black, then this law can be disregarded.
    Very droll and not even remotely funny. The Judiciary chair was a South African High Court judge, and the remainder of the committee were another South African and a former Argentinian rugby referee. How do you reconcile that with with your anti-NZ bigotry?
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 4 Days Ago at 23:09.
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  2. #102

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    JBs legs were already extended, changing the angle they were extended wouldn't stop his rotation, only help to protect himself because he was going to get throttled as soon as he landed. So he kicked his opponent in the face, recklessly.
    Again

    He didn't just change the angle, he extended them as well. Not by much, but by enough.

    Sorry, I know what I can see on that video, I am not going to be convinced to deny what I can clearly see.
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  3. #103

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    I have no idea what you are trying to demonstrate here. In this instance, there IS a reason for his leg to be there, he is attempting to kick a ball. With the jump, his leg is in an unnatural position, raised as a defensive measure. If he chooses to jump like this he accepts the risk of RC if he makes contact with another player.
    1. As I said I the quote, the dangers of generalising

    2. There was a reason for Barrett's leg to be where it was. In my view, and in the view if the independent Judiciary, he was trying to stop his backwards rotation; a rotation that I have clearly, graphically and irrefutably demonstrated, was actually happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    You’re contorting yourself through all angles to justify something that is not correct. His leg didn’t end up there due to physics.
    Except that it did. Watch the video. You can see his rotation STOPS when the leg goes out BEFORE his foot makes contact with Korobete's face. This is an observational fact that you can't just hand-wave away like a conspiracy theorist would.

    I have presented clear, compelling evidence that my claim is valid. So far, all I have had in reply is handwaving, dogma, appeals to authoirty and accusations of bias.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 4 Days Ago at 22:09.
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  4. #104

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Has any-one actually seen / read the judiciary decision?

    I have been present at a court case when the defence produced an expert witness who addressed a perspective not foreseen by the prosecution. In the absence of an alternative expert witness view (yes they do exist), the prosecution case was unable to be proven. The defendant could not be punished for what he had done. That is / was our adversarial court system.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

  5. #105

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by chbg View Post
    Has any-one actually seen / read the judiciary decision?

    I have been present at a court case when the defence produced an expert witness who addressed a perspective not foreseen by the prosecution. In the absence of an alternative expert witness view (yes they do exist), the prosecution case was unable to be proven. The defendant could not be punished for what he had done. That is / was our adversarial court system.
    I will try to find it for you

    I know they had two biomechanics experts who provided evidence; Professor Patricia Hume (Professor of Human Performance at AUT), and Dr Mark Sayers (Associate Professor of Sports Biomechanics at USC)

    The Judiciary panel was

    Senior Counsel Robert Stelzner (South Africa)
    Former test rugby player De Wet Barry (South Africa)
    Former international referee JosÚ Luis Rolandi (Argentina)

    Interestingly, one of the precedent cases they brought up was a player was from Northampton who faced a similar citing post-match and the hearing resulted in that citing being thrown out for much the same reasons as this red card was overturned.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 4 Days Ago at 23:09.
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  6. #106

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    I think we may be at risk of concentrating on the wrong issues.

    Barrett got himself up there. He has an obligation to look after himself in a way that doesn't endanger other players. He signally failed to do that. Him. No-one else. He got himself into that situation, and intentional or noit, it was boots to the head.

    Red.

    Rotation? Don't care. His fault.
    Leg raise to slow himself? Don't care. His fault.

    He did this to himself, and the SANZAAR Judiciary has let the game down.
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  7. #107

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    I think we may be at risk of concentrating on the wrong issues.

    Barrett got himself up there. He has an obligation to look after himself in a way that doesn't endanger other players. He signally failed to do that. Him. No-one else. He got himself into that situation, and intentional or noit, it was boots to the head.

    Red.

    Rotation? Don't care. His fault.
    Leg raise to slow himself? Don't care. His fault.

    He did this to himself, and the SANZAAR Judiciary has let the game down.
    I see the opinions of two sports biomechanics experts and one former international rugby referee, against a few grass roots refs posting on a rugby forum

    Its not hard for me to work out who to believe


    We'll have to agree to differ Simon
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  8. #108

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I see the opinions of two sports biomechanics experts and one former international rugby referee, against a few grass roots refs posting on a rugby forum

    Its not hard for me to work out who to believe


    We'll have to agree to differ Simon
    So what you are saying is that he intentionally put his foot near the face of his opponent, but that it wasn't reckless, because he jumped poorly?

  9. #109

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    So what you are saying is that he intentionally put his foot near the face of his opponent, but that it wasn't reckless, because he jumped poorly?
    I'm saying that he unintentionally put his leg up as a result of a natural reaction to regain his balance when he felt he was rotating over backward. Dr Mark Sayers stated that "It’s just a biomechanical consequence of the movement”. If Koroibete had been half a metre further back, we would not even be having this discussion.

    And this goes right back to what I said at the beginning. World Rugby and the clueless morons who make the Laws are 100% to blame for this, and situations like it. They have put in place a system that encourages players to take risks, by warning them that if they don't jump higher than the other guy, then regardless of intent, they will be blamed if anything goes wrong. When you make people take risks, in this case, encouraging players to attempt to perform beyond their limits, it is inevitable that there are going to be mistimings and misjudgements.

    This Judiciary Panel (a Senior Counsel of the High Court of South Africa, and former international rugby player from the same country, and a former international rugby referee from Argentina) saw the video evidence put forward by NZ Rugby, and heard the testimony of expert witnesses with qualifications and years of experience in Sports Biomechanics. They made their decision based on the evidence put before them. They found that evidence to be sufficiently compelling to show that this was an accident and not act of recklessness. Would you prefer they ignore the evidence they have seen and just rubber stamp the Laws of Rugby? I find that evidence compelling as well.

    This Judiciary has not let the game down, World Rugby has done that!
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 3 Days Ago at 23:09.
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  10. #110

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I see the opinions of two sports biomechanics experts and one former international rugby referee, against a few grass roots refs posting on a rugby forum

    Its not hard for me to work out who to believe


    We'll have to agree to differ Simon
    1. Coming from the man whop rejected the opinion of other international experts in the area who weren't being paid by the ABs, that's a bit ****ing rich.
    2.You seem to have missed my point. Regardless of what his body was doing, he was solely responsible for it. He has a duty of care to other players in which he failed as a result of his own actions.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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