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Thread: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

      
  1. #61
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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    OMG, that's a disgraceful ruling. Who, who is not completely inept thinks that getting kicked in the face isn't dangerous!! Accidentally or not. So if (I know it what iffery). Lets say a stud when into the eyeball. Player loses sight in that eye. This argument is that putting you foot up isn't dangerous!! That's an absolute joke! There's plenty of examples on that twitter link that have resulted in bans, justifiably so. Accidental or not it's dangerous to raise your feet in this way.... If he'd been hit in the air and the rotation brought them up then, that's not his fault and I be like fair enough. That's not they case here though.

    That's a poor, poor call. I feel sorry for anyone playing elite level rugby who chase kicks now. You've now got Carte Blanche to kick people in the head "accidentally."

    Just nuts.

  2. #62

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    OMG, that's a disgraceful ruling. Who, who is not completely inept thinks that getting kicked in the face isn't dangerous!! Accidentally or not. So if (I know it what iffery). Lets say a stud when into the eyeball. Player loses sight in that eye. This argument is that putting you foot up isn't dangerous!! That's an absolute joke! There's plenty of examples on that twitter link that have resulted in bans, justifiably so. Accidental or not it's dangerous to raise your feet in this way.... If he'd been hit in the air and the rotation brought them up then, that's not his fault and I be like fair enough. That's not they case here though.

    That's a poor, poor call. I feel sorry for anyone playing elite level rugby who chase kicks now. You've now got Carte Blanche to kick people in the head "accidentally."

    Just nuts.
    The mere fact if being kicked in the face is not in itself proof of foul play. Surely we have all seen a player get such a kick when trying to tackle an opponent from behind.

    The claim is that Jordie was stretching out his legs in order to slow down his spin. That would only have worked if he was doing a somersault. If there had been no contact with Korobeite, it looks to me as if he might have landed on his back - a reverse somersault. That is not a safe way to jump.
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  3. #63

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod Burton View Post
    I look forward to players arguing that raising a knee into a tacklers head isn't reckless if they are unbalanced at the time.

    I find it strange that people defend Barrett by saying that he was in the air and unbalanced etc, but IMO he placed himself in that position in order to gain an advantage over the opposition. He lifted his leading leg and went studs first towards the Wallaby's line and chasers. If the shoe was on the other foot and Koroibete had slipped over at the last minute, the Barrett's boot missed his face and he took Barrett out in the air would the same people say no red card as the Gold player was unbalanced? I doubt it - they would point out that the actions of the gold player put him in a position for the dangerous or reckless contact to occur and therefore its his fault.

    I don't find it at all strange. This is bound to happen when, as I said earlier, players are being encouraged by the Laws to jump as high as they can. They are repeatedly told that if they don't jump higher than the other guy, they will automatically be ruled at fault should anything go wrong. When you ask players to do things that are beyond the margins of safety, mistakes and errors of judgement are going to happen. Should we be strongly encouraging players to take that kind of risk, and then punishing them when they get it wrong?

    There is absolutely ZERO doubt in my mind that these sorts of incidents have been set-up as a result of the complete lack of vision shown by those who write the Laws, guidelines and protocols of this game. Some of us here (and not just me) have been predicting this since 2015. The rescinding if the Benjamin Fall RC (NZ v France 2018) was the first sign of a crack in WR's plan to eliminate considerations of intent and their obsession with the idea that blame MUST be apportioned to a player.

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    The mere fact if being kicked in the face is not in itself proof of foul play. Surely we have all seen a player get such a kick when trying to tackle an opponent from behind.

    The claim is that Jordie was stretching out his legs in order to slow down his spin. That would only have worked if he was doing a somersault. If there had been no contact with Korobeite, it looks to me as if he might have landed on his back - a reverse somersault. That is not a safe way to jump.
    Conservation of angular momentum applies to any rotation in any direction - sticking a leg out slows the rotation in a forward or a backward somersault.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 09-09-21 at 22:09.
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  4. #64

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Missed seeing this earlier

    Firstly, I would say that the blue card is completely unnecessary. Why not just signal with a tap on the side of the head like they do at elite level and in countries where they don't use the blue card.

    Secondly, Black card was just a suggestion. You could show both the yellow and the red together, or not card at all. If a player commits such an egregious, intentional act of Foul Play play such as a clear and obvious punch or eye-gouge or head stomp, just take the advice of English former international referee Fred Howard... "When you find yourself pointing to the sideline, you know its a sending off"
    Ian, colour of cards not so important. This bit is:

    More importantly, the 20 mins is designed to help prevent a game turning into a 1-sided affair, which is a good thing. Heinous foul play will appropriately be dealt with by the judiciary.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Ian, colour of cards not so important. This bit is:
    Oh, I agree with that. Sending the player off permanently, and being allowed to replace him after a set period such as 20 minutes or more is a good thing IMO. IIRC crossref suggested something very similar in an earlier discussion a couple of years back. If we are going to RC players for accidents, then it seems wholly inequitable to punish the whole team by putting them down to 14 for the rest of the game.

    However, I would like to know whether you support sending a player off with no replacement if they commit an obviously intentional act of violence such as as stomping on a player's head, or biting an opponent's ear, or eye-gouging - you know, stuff like the following...

    Richard Loe on Paul Carozza (elbow to the face after the latter scored a try)
    Michael Brial on Frank Bunce (a flurry of 9 punches)
    David Attoub on Steve Ferris (a vicious eye gouge that got him a 70-week suspension)
    Johan Le Roux on Sean Fitzpatrick (Biting his ear, 26 weeks)

    .. or would you rather it stay at a 20 min red card, and let the judiciary deal with keeping other players safe from them.
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  6. #66

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post

    .. or would you rather it stay at a 20 min red card, and let the judiciary deal with keeping other players safe from them.
    this ^^^.

    The egregious offender is out of the game for it's duration so no different to the black card.

    But the 20 minute rule helps to ensure the game isn't turned into a 1 sided farce which is important.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  7. #67

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    that's my view

    if an egregious act of violence creates a one sided game, then I have no sympathy : don't commit egregious acts of violence.

    but when what is basically an accident (insufficient care / bad technique >> reckless) and a player had no intention of committing foul play, and we RC him anyway (to encourage more care and better technique) ... then fair enough, but it's silly to turn that particular game into a one-sided farce .

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    this ^^^.

    The egregious offender is out of the game for it's duration so no different to the black card.

    But the 20 minute rule helps to ensure the game isn't turned into a 1 sided farce which is important.
    There is no place in the game for foul play. If it turns into a farce then that is of the team's making, too often we see games where the offence committed by repeat perpetrators, they are selected by coaches and DORs that know their temperament and history. At some point the responsibility of the club has to come to the fore and they decide not to select liability players.

    But how often does it end in farce?

    How often do we see foul play that isn't red carded with the culprit having a significant influence, try or try saving tackle, on the outcome? Isn't that more farcical as it's not only reinforcing foul play but penalising the victims where their player has been removed form the field of play.

    Interesting comment from Austin Healey on the Sale Wasps Clip:

    "You can do what you want when you're jumping for the ball"

    If we want to play rollerball or such like then you will be leaving quite a few fans behind.

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by BikingBud View Post
    There is no place in the game for foul play. If it turns into a farce then that is of the team's making, too often we see games where the offence committed by repeat perpetrators, they are selected by coaches and DORs that know their temperament and history. At some point the responsibility of the club has to come to the fore and they decide not to select liability players.

    But how often does it end in farce?

    How often do we see foul play that isn't red carded with the culprit having a significant influence, try or try saving tackle, on the outcome? Isn't that more farcical as it's not only reinforcing foul play but penalising the victims where their player has been removed form the field of play.

    Interesting comment from Austin Healey on the Sale Wasps Clip:

    "You can do what you want when you're jumping for the ball"

    If we want to play rollerball or such like then you will be leaving quite a few fans behind.

    Perhaps we can look at it this way. With a 20 minute red card and that player does not return, the referees might be more willing to go the red card way, knowing that even if they have got it wrong, it is less likely to impact the game itself. I'm not saying that they should, of course, but human nature is what it is.

    The way to make players safe from the repeat, violent offender is not to just to remove them from the game in which they commit the offence, but remove them for longer periods. For example, Dylan Hartley with a record of thuggery that includes biting, punching, elbowing, verbally abusing a referee, eye-gouging (actually two counts of gouging in the same game), and head-butting, has spent something like 52 weeks suspended in his career... and probably should have spent longer. Punching should get you sidelined for a couple of months, biting should get you four to five months out of the game, bag-snatching and eye-gouging are attempt to intentionally inflict serious, perhaps permanent injury on the opponent. They should end your playing days permanently.
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  10. #70

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    Default Re: Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Conservation of angular momentum applies to any rotation in any direction - sticking a leg out slows the rotation in a forward or a backward somersault.
    In what direction was he rotating - forwards or backwards?
    Why was he rotating?
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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