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Thread: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

      
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    Default Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    If this is what constitutes a YC these days, then heaven help the game...

    https://youtu.be/9it5QOfs1y4?t=108

    (Note: if the time coded link doesn't work, the incident starts at 1:48 in the video)

    Blue 14 has almost ZERO chance to do anything about an opponent who jumps (completely unnecessarily) at the same moment he catches a bouncing ball. Red 15 has literally bought this YC by his actions. A truly ridiculous decision, and as clear a demonstration as you are likely to see that WR has got this wrong.

    To be clear, I have no quibble at all with Sarah Cox, who is a very good referee, making the decision she did. She is effectively shoehorned into it by a set of ludicrous laws. This is the sort of incident I am talking about when I say that intent needs to be taken into account. What Blue 14 did here was neither reckless nor careless. He has been punished for not having the millisecond reaction time of Superman when his opponent did something that was not only unexpected, but unnecessary.
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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    So why should Q15 have to reach above his head to catch the ball whilst keeping his feet on the ground, thus exposing his open chest to a tackle? I was jumping off the ground to catch a kick off in order to negate the opposition engagement 30 years ago. B14 was always too far behind the ball, so was reckless to carry on. What other complaints about this decision have there been?

    WR has to prevent such collisions to minimise injuries. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and 'off the ground' is the simplest to define.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    As Ian says, there is no argument about the refereeing of the incident, but the Quins FB is clearly jumping as high as possible to give himself as much time and protection as possible. I doubt that this was what WR intended. Essentially, any defender in a position to catch a bouncing ball should be coached to always jump if there's any opposition player nearby.

    The one which really gets me is a defender tackling a player having to jump to catch a poor pass from a team mate.

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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    Quote Originally Posted by chbg View Post
    So why should Q15 have to reach above his head to catch the ball whilst keeping his feet on the ground, thus exposing his open chest to a tackle? I was jumping off the ground to catch a kick off in order to negate the opposition engagement 30 years ago. B14 was always too far behind the ball, so was reckless to carry on. What other complaints about this decision have there been?

    WR has to prevent such collisions to minimise injuries. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and 'off the ground' is the simplest to define.
    No, it doesn't. "A line has to be drawn" is the propaganda that WR has force-fed to referees to justify their idiot policies - it is essentially saying that there is no such thing as an accident, that every action on the field is deemed intentional and blame must be apportioned.

    What if W14 had done a Dan Biggar and recklessly leapt at Q15 at a full sprint, collecting him chest-to-face, and got flipped over. The card would have gone the other way.

    All situations are unique - trying to apply "cookie cutter" solutions to hundreds of unique and individual scenarios is beyond farcical. WR should change their stupid policy; they should allow the referee to look at a situation like this (which was clearly and obviously an accident) and decide it was accidental, take no action and restart with a scrum under Law 19.1 - table item 12 or 16.
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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    Quote Originally Posted by KoolFork View Post
    As Ian says, there is no argument about the refereeing of the incident, but the Quins FB is clearly jumping as high as possible to give himself as much time and protection as possible. I doubt that this was what WR intended. Essentially, any defender in a position to catch a bouncing ball should be coached to always jump if there's any opposition player nearby.

    The one which really gets me is a defender tackling a player having to jump to catch a poor pass from a team mate.
    Indeed. They have tried to write a procedure that covers everything and failed, which was bound to happen because in real life, it is impossible to do. There will ALWAYS be edge cases. That is why taking away referee judgement is the biggest blunder that WR could possibly have made.
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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    My initial reaction was aligned with yours Ian - a ridiculous YC. But on reflection I agree with the YC decision. 14 blue had no chance of recovering the ball. Yes 15 jumped high to gain protection (putting his feet at that level is unnecessary) however as 14 blue had no change of recovering the ball and was always going to either tackle or avoid the jumping player, once 15 jumped then 14 always had to ensure they did not contact in 15 landed. They chose to continue at speed into the tackle area and should take the consequences of those actions.

    In this case the impact was minimal which makes the YC look a little soft, but they have made contact with a player in the air and should take the consequences of doing so.

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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    My initial reaction was aligned with yours Ian - a ridiculous YC. But on reflection I agree with the YC decision. 14 blue had no chance of recovering the ball.
    I don't think he was going to attempt to do that, rather he was expecting the player to catch the ball and he would tackle him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    Yes 15 jumped high to gain protection (putting his feet at that level is unnecessary) however as 14 blue had no change of recovering the ball and was always going to either tackle or avoid the jumping player, once 15 jumped then 14 always had to ensure they did not contact in 15 landed. They chose to continue at speed into the tackle area and should take the consequences of those actions.

    Memo to all rugby coaches: Coach your players to jump as they are about to be tackled so that you can win a PK for a tackle in the air, and if you're lucky, the opponent might be YC too.

    The above is what you are in effect advocating - that a player ought to be able to protect himself from being tackled by getting his feet off the ground at the last moment. At the very least, I would be coaching players to tuck their legs up immediately after they have landed from catching a ball
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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I don't think he was going to attempt to do that, rather he was expecting the player to catch the ball and he would tackle him.

    Memo to all rugby coaches: Coach your players to jump as they are about to be tackled so that you can win a PK for a tackle in the air, and if you're lucky, the opponent might be YC too.

    The above is what you are in effect advocating - that a player ought to be able to protect himself from being tackled by getting his feet off the ground at the last moment. At the very least, I would be coaching players to tuck their legs up immediately after they have landed from catching a ball
    There’s a difference to jumping for the ball to avoid a tackle, a jumping in general play to avoid a tackle. I am not going to reward a player in possession of the ball who jumps in general play to avoid a tackle, he is more likely to be penalised for dangerous play. I will protect a player jumping to gain possession of a ball.

    You don’t have to look for the extreme or ridiculous examples to try and prove your point. We can disagree politely on this. I think it was a deserved YC and hav give my arguments, you disagree. Great, lets carry on.

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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    Was he unsighted by 'Quins 6 ? And would that change your decision ?

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Quins v Worcs: Noah Heward YC

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post

    All situations are unique - trying to apply "cookie cutter" solutions to hundreds of unique and individual scenarios is beyond farcical. WR should change their stupid policy; they should allow the referee to look at a situation like this (which was clearly and obviously an accident) and decide it was accidental, take no action and restart with a scrum under Law 19.1 - table item 12 or 16.
    that's bollocks and you know it.

    That was a straight up YC. If he'd landed any worse, would have been RC.
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